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smallblocksn95

Subframe Connector Debate

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brian, is there any reason youre going with kenny brown over a stifflers FIT system? Just curious

Just a preference. Not saying anything is wrong with the Stifflers FIT system but Kenny Brown is a well known and proven (track proven) company and I've been talking with them on a regular basis here recently. I've heard of Stifflers before and know people with some of their products though.

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I'll ask Kenny Brown why theirs is better than that FIT system and see what their response is.

This is what I got back when I asked about their system compared to MM's full length SFCs:

"The MM units are designed as full length because they support the full free-span between the sub-frame rails requiring larger tubing, AND they use it to support load from the torque arm rear suspension. Kenny's double-cross subframe connector design cuts the free-span between the rails in half by also connecting to the seat mounts. The benefit is the captured length vs. the free-span is smaller so you don't need to weld the full length of the frame rail, it provides additional support to the seat mounting points on the mid-pan which is a known problem area for aging cars, and it requires much less material for support so lighter tubing and less tubing for less weight. Not sure if that makes sense... Kenny's Matrix Brace and Jacking rails make a huge difference and since we basically create a bunch of triangles under the car it creates rigid frame-like structure with minimal addition in weight due to how it captures load. The jacking rails are like the greatest thing ever, they totally save the rocker area from warping or destructing when you jack the car up...

Most of that super heavy-duty, full-length, tubing everywhere stuff is just overkill and adds too much weight. In the case of the torque arm rear suspension many of the road racers use, it's really heavy, sends a ton of load into the front part of the chassis, and requires a lot of support hence the large tubing and bracing. Kenny never really did that, most of our race cars used the common 4-link with a panhard bar, or the IRS after 1999 which is so much better than a live-axle suspension. I think everyone out there has pretty much copied Kenny's original designs for the matrix components in one way or another..."

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Damn, that is a good looking setup. I'm eager to hear what Kenny Brown says. I'm also going to email Stifflers and get their opinion. Should be interesting to hear both sides. Nice x-member brace too! I wanted to pick one up a while ago. Maybe you've got me going a different direction?

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I assume since you have a few of their parts and you have that in that you've kept in contact with them. When you went to purchase their products did you compare them to any others like the KB kit I was thinking about getting by chance? What made you go with their company over others?

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well if you get a hold of stifflers, You will more than likely talk to brian figg. Super cool dude, real down to earth. He used to design suspension systems for INDY or CART or Formula 1 (i cant remember) and then for a major shock company, so he's got experience. I cant say much about Kenny Browns stuff as ive never used it. And i love the tranny crossmember too, mine is a prototype, but its available now. When my friend and i actually got our FIT systems we went to Indy and had Stifflers install it. Brian cut us a deal, I got a Prototype x-member, and we all got to B.S. for awhile. good times

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i actually planned on getting Kenny's system for years, until he closed up shop because of health problems. Then one of my good friends had the fit system installed on his black 01 bullitt, so i had someones opinion that i trusted. I called brian at stifflers and the rest is history. I mean ive heard things about other companies, and i really dont want to stand here any bash anyone considering ive never used their products. I will say that to my knowledge, the fit system is more adaptive than other companies, and that stifflers web and jacking rails can be added to any full length SFC. One more thing i have noticed is that a large difference can be felt between my car (FIT system) and alyssas (MM full length SFC).

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Yeah, that's the one that SniveTroll told me to get. I might go with the FIT kit and the x-member brace from them after seeing your picture and looking at the FIT vs the KB side by side. The kit looks a lot more heavy duty.

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086b4f35.jpg

The only question I have about this design is why did they not use standard basic triangulation. Triangulation is the simplest and strongest force distributing design. have you ever noticed on the really large cranes how small the steel in the boom is and it is held together with smaller steel that is triangulated? There w=may very well be a good reason for their design, but it seems it could have been built lighter and just as strong if not stronger if they would have went with triangulation. If you call these guys Brian ask them what the logic behind the design is.

matt

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^exactly.... not nearly as strong as they can be. The absolute BEST subframe connectors I have seen other than through the floor weld ins, have got to be the Hans Racecraft. good luck finding them though because last I heard they are no longer for sale.

IMG_9336.jpg

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Order the set like Shiffy had on his last car and F8LGT has on his car now. Order the round DOM round stock and some 2x2 box tubing from Summit, or procure it locally. We can make a simple set of triangulated SFC like pictured above. They will be lighter than the FIT SFC's but just as strong.

The steel can be procured locally but it is usually a $75 minimum purchase from the local steel yards.

matt

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Order the set like Shiffy had on his last car and F8LGT has on his car now. Order the round DOM round stock and some 2x2 box tubing from Summit, or procure it locally. We can make a simple set of triangulated SFC like pictured above. They will be lighter than the FIT SFC's but just as strong.

The steel can be procured locally but it is usually a $75 minimum purchase from the local steel yards.

matt

Definately... With the ones I had and F8LGT has now, is a perfect base. Weld them in, then build off that to form the triangulated pieces.

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To order the steel from summit, 1.5" square for the outside bar, and 3/4" round for the triangulation(2-8ft sections of each) would be about $110 shipped. You can get the steel locally for less, but like zi said there is usually a $75 minimum, If you and Schiffy went in together we could do 2 sets probably for the cost of what one set would be ordering from Summit

matt

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Hmmm... would there be any way to know if it'll be stronger or more effective than one the FIT system? Just not trying to spend the money twice or have anyone do extra work. I don't have a problem if money is the biggest concern.

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All I know is that simple triangulation is the strongest design there is. Look at a dragster frame rails, they are 4 long tubes that are connected through smaller tubing using triangulation. As I said earlier, look at the boom,s on really large cranes, same thing 4 large tubes connected with smaller tubes using triangulation. Same deal with steel building roof trusses, a large T beam connected to another smaller supporting T beam connected with standard triangulation. Which would be stronger, i have no way of testing. Like I said, FIT must of had a reason for using the deign they did for a reason, but it looks heavy, smaller tubing with standard triangulation seems like it would be stronger.

Matt

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Look at the ones iRoush posted, the triangulation tubing looks to be smaller diameter then the Fit, so it is lighter. But I believe it is just as strong if not stronger than the FIT product. I have no skin in the game for either company, just posting my honest opinion. There does come a point where it becomes overkill and adding more steel adds nothing more to the equation.

matt

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I am calm, yep still barley have a pulse. just trying to explain my theory. you see when he talks to fit the will have a good sounding story, and if Brian does not know the facts he may be easily swayed. He can find the facts that i am talking about through a simple internet search now that he knows where I am coming from.

matt

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Not everyone but what Matt is saying is that we could potentially build a lighter stronger setup than the FIT system. He wasn't comparing the KB to the FIT. Just saying.

And weight is a HUGE factor in many different types of racing, which I'm sure you know, so yes losing body weight will help but so will saving weight on the SFCs. Again, just saying.

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it looks like the KB and FIT system uses the same basic SFC as a base. If the FIT proves better than the KB Matrix do you think I could add the rest of the fit system to my standard KB SFC? They look pretty much identical.

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