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Lazer_Red

Engine build/swap opinion

45 posts in this topic
On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 4:27 PM, 410sn95 said:

 

 It is not a dd nore would I want to dd the car. It was setup as high power handling car with NVH being at the bottom of my list. That being said, NVH is actually very good for what the car is. I think the dumps create more NVH than the engine does.  No issues with trans tunnel or firewall on initial fit.  The tunnel had to be "modified" a little when I went T-56 Magnum.

 

I am sure intake choice killed some potential low end tq but the motor is a 410 stroker with a Vortech YSi blower.  Any tq lost from short runner's is more than made up for with cubes. It's no slouch on the bottom and pulls very hard up top when it gets up on the blower.  Driving on the street I actually find that there is never an instance I need to make boost to motivate the car.

Yeah NVH is not huge on my list but it is important for me, but i am glad that its not to bad.  Lol i dont dump my exhaust anymore for that reason.

 

There is no replacement for displacement lol.  I bet that 410 is mean and boost makes it even more fun.  I will boost mine at some point.  Right now though if i do the 351 i think heads, cam and intake will be good for a while.  

 

You guys think the 190 11r heads will be plenty for the 351?  I was thinking the 56 cc head to raise the comp alittle. Maybe a trick flow r intake or spider intake with elbow and an ed curtis cam. Long tubes or shorties?

Edited by Lazer_Red
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Right now my aode is acting up so i will be buying my old car back from a friend and swapping the t5 out of it into my car.  The rest of the car will be a parts car and will sell everything before it is scrapped.  After this is done then i will start working on the engine swap.

 

Kris

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i'm late to the party but i'm also in the camp of built up a 302 and now wish i hadn't.  at this point i'm not throwing anymore money at my engine even though there is still some room to grow yet and clean up.  i'll be swapping coyote if this thing ever gives me problems again or when i just feel like dropping the cash.  it's the easiest way to make a lot of power reliably at this point.

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15 minutes ago, Prokiller said:

i'm late to the party but i'm also in the camp of built up a 302 and now wish i hadn't.  at this point i'm not throwing anymore money at my engine even though there is still some room to grow yet and clean up.  i'll be swapping coyote if this thing ever gives me problems again or when i just feel like dropping the cash.  it's the easiest way to make a lot of power reliably at this point.

 

Kinda the way I feel about the 289 in my 66.  It's a fresh rebuild, and back when it was rebuilt, 300hp was a big deal.  Quite honestly, I would much rather just put a coyote in it and call it good... smelling like gas after a 5 minute drive doesn't hold the same appeal it once did.

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48 minutes ago, Psychorugby said:

 

Kinda the way I feel about the 289 in my 66.  It's a fresh rebuild, and back when it was rebuilt, 300hp was a big deal.  Quite honestly, I would much rather just put a coyote in it and call it good... smelling like gas after a 5 minute drive doesn't hold the same appeal it once did.

granted when we built ours, coyotes weren't even in the thoughts of ford.  i just wish i would have went dart windsor from the word go.

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51 minutes ago, Prokiller said:

granted when we built ours, coyotes weren't even in the thoughts of ford.  i just wish i would have went dart windsor from the word go.

 

More or less why I chose the 351w route... but damn if it doesn't entail a bunch of extra thought.

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The only "con" to a crate coyote swap (complete engine with harness and computer) is the price.  If the price isn't an issue, there's no drawbacks.

 

Everybody already beat up the 302-based builds so I don't need to say more.

 

a 351 stroked to 393 or more can compete with the coyote on the dyno.  It will be heavier and it will be more temperamental, both of which are cons for handling and street manners, but it can be done for less money which is the compromise.

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11 minutes ago, seijirou said:

351 stroked to 393 or more can compete with the coyote on the dyno.  It will be heavier and it will be more temperamental, both of which are cons for handling and street manners, but it can be done for less money which is the compromise.

 

This is the main reason I sold my 410w.

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Maybe it's my age showing but...

 

Every internet thread, every mag article, and fb post seems to be "OMG!!!!!!!!1111!!1! Coyote swap it!!!1!1".  I get it, it's a great motor. Just seems like its the flavor of year for the Ford guys. 

 

If I went by the interwebs alone: The pushrod build is exotic with black magic needing to be applied to make work. 

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35 minutes ago, 410sn95 said:

Maybe it's my age showing but...

 

Every internet thread, every mag article, and fb post seems to be "OMG!!!!!!!!1111!!1! Coyote swap it!!!1!1".  I get it, it's a great motor. Just seems like its the flavor of year for the Ford guys. 

 

If I went by the interwebs alone: The pushrod build is exotic with black magic needing to be applied to make work. 

 

Yeah, not many people know how to measure for pushrods or set valve lash.  

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It's the progress of technology.  Any two things a coyote can do you can also do with a pushrod, but after that the coyote's gonna beat ya.  Either in power, economy, drivability / street manners, reliability, cubic inches, etc.

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48 minutes ago, seijirou said:

It's the progress of technology.  Any two things a coyote can do you can also do with a pushrod, but after that the coyote's gonna beat ya.  Either in power, economy, drivability / street manners, reliability, cubic inches, etc.

 

Exactly... In my particular case I'm looking for reliable, repeatable power with a high RPM powerband. I've been very impressed with the way the tune only 5.0 moves my '15 Super Crew around and I can only imagine what that would equate to in a gutted SN95 and sticky rubber.

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7 hours ago, seijirou said:

It's the progress of technology.  Any two things a coyote can do you can also do with a pushrod, but after that the coyote's gonna beat ya.  Either in power, economy, drivability / street manners, reliability, cubic inches, etc.

 

I agree its a great all around motor.

 

I disagree that it will beat the pushrod all the time. Where does the coyote beat a stroked tall deck windsor in cubes? Lets not forget the LS: the engine touched by the hand of god.  It's a pushrod and competes very well with the coyote in new cars.

 

I also think it takes all the fun out of things to just "drop a coyote in it". Gone are the days of researching cam shaft, heads, intake, management, etc...  Peeps be all... "Lets just drop a coyote in it".

 

Am I biased? Probably.  Have been rocking a blown stroker tall deck for a long time. Makes good power, excellent driveability, 16mpg on the freeway and still has yet to be beaten by a local coyote.  Then again it hasn't been out for a yr or so. Maybe I should get it out of the shop, getting motivated.

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2 hours ago, 410sn95 said:

 

I agree its a great all around motor.

 

I disagree that it will beat the pushrod all the time. Where does the coyote beat a stroked tall deck windsor in cubes? 

 

By needing less of them :)

 

A pushrod can be built to have the power and the manners but it takes more cubes to get there.  With cubes comes static weight, reciprocating mass, rpm limitations...  Not even considering how the pushrod design itself brings mass problems with it.

 

It's a competition the pushrod can't win but that's okay, it's progress, it's not supposed to win.

 

And you're right, they don't have the character.  The steam engine has even more character than the i.c.e. and even more ways to tinker for performance but only eclectic people build them because they're so far behind in the progress of technology.

 

Truth is you picking the pushrod is the same as the guy picking the coyote, you just have a different preference balance of performance vs charm.

 

Neither is a wrong choice, you do you. 👍

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Yeah I have been doing a lot of research and I still can't decide.  The f150 engine can be had for less then 2k here in Texas so that not to bad.  But I would have to buy a modular car and get all the pieces needed to swap my push rod car. Or buy them individually, so the expense keeps building.  But building a push rod can be the same money wise lol.  Either way will nickel and dime you. So I decided to just focus on the suspension and chassis then worry about the engine.  We will see when the time comes were I am at money wise and go from there.  

 

Kris

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10 hours ago, Lazer_Red said:

Yeah I have been doing a lot of research and I still can't decide.  The f150 engine can be had for less then 2k here in Texas so that not to bad.  But I would have to buy a modular car and get all the pieces needed to swap my push rod car. Or buy them individually, so the expense keeps building.  But building a push rod can be the same money wise lol.  Either way will nickel and dime you. So I decided to just focus on the suspension and chassis then worry about the engine.  We will see when the time comes were I am at money wise and go from there.  

 

Kris

not necessarily true.  you don't have buy a new car.  the really only added expense is the control pack and a few other little things for the accessory bracketry.  otherwise it would all be stuff you would normally do to build a good solid motor.

 

k-member is just a mod motor version, but same price.  plus motor mounts

swap headers, still just headers really

oil pan, again, you generally want a nicer pan on a new build with larger capacity, so same.

fuel system changes slightly, but depending on the build, you would be doing some of these pieces anyway.

 

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1 hour ago, Prokiller said:

not necessarily true.  you don't have buy a new car.  the really only added expense is the control pack and a few other little things for the accessory bracketry.  otherwise it would all be stuff you would normally do to build a good solid motor.

 

k-member is just a mod motor version, but same price.  plus motor mounts

swap headers, still just headers really

oil pan, again, you generally want a nicer pan on a new build with larger capacity, so same.

fuel system changes slightly, but depending on the build, you would be doing some of these pieces anyway.

 

 

 

All of this is true.  You would likely be doing all of these components anyhow.

 

The control pack is hefty but let's be realistic.  All of those items are not that expensive, but then you have an established 350+ to the tire car, that gets 20+ mpg and has modern drive-ability.  It's hard to beat it because the cost is really not prohibitive.  

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I share the sentiment of everyone. I have been wanting to do a built 5.4 2v turbo swap but after I pieced together everything I realized after all that I would only have mediocre power and still could keep up with coyotes. pretty much parting with everything 2v now. I am saving some stuff for a built 5.4 4v build I really want to do someday. everything else is forsale.

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On 6/16/2017 at 8:31 AM, Prokiller said:

not necessarily true.  you don't have buy a new car.  the really only added expense is the control pack and a few other little things for the accessory bracketry.  otherwise it would all be stuff you would normally do to build a good solid motor.

 

k-member is just a mod motor version, but same price.  plus motor mounts

swap headers, still just headers really

oil pan, again, you generally want a nicer pan on a new build with larger capacity, so same.

fuel system changes slightly, but depending on the build, you would be doing some of these pieces anyway.

 

 

dont forget about transmission compatibility, brake system compatibility... etc.

A mod swap isnt nearly as cheap and easy as people think, without a donor car.

Bottom line is, if you want a coyote SN95, start with a 96+

 

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9 hours ago, The Mk2 said:

 

dont forget about transmission compatibility, brake system compatibility... etc.

A mod swap isnt nearly as cheap and easy as people think, without a donor car.

Bottom line is, if you want a coyote SN95, start with a 96+

 

Yeah I decided to keep it simple and stay with a push rod😁

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