Kenne Bell vs Vortech/Novi/Procharger for Pushrod 5.0

[Brian]

I'm looking to see what yalls opinions are for adding a supercharger to a 5.0 pushrod. I know the traditional is a Vortech S-Trim but there are others out there like OnyxCobra who are running a KB. I know that boost will be in the future for my car at some point so I wanted to see what people thought. I'm sure other people might learn a thing or two from a topic such as this.

Disclaimer: Please resist from posting "go turbo".

I know that KBs have an issue with heat soaking. There are a few methods to fixing this such as meth or a custom A/A intercooler. Whereas a Vortech S-Trim setup doesn't need any kind of intercooler or meth. But what are some other reasons why I should or should not consider a KB over a Vortech or the other way around?

Sorry if this is confusing. Just trying to get different opinions on different supercharger options for the pushrod guys. See what conversation can stir up.

[Javi]

I cant strees this enough, Vortech is the best bang for your money and are the most efficient superchargers out there.

Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech Vortech

[Silverv6]

^ =]]

[MMR]

Kenne Bell are some pricy SOBs..jeez!

[the.greg]

The problem with the pushrod kenne bells is that they have no intercooling options. There is a way to custom make one, a guy on corral did it, but it took tons of custom fabrication. He had to cut open the kenne bell blower, weld a plate to redirect airflow and then obviously the custom front mount piping.

I wish there was a better solution, but thats the only way to intercool them. Unless you consider chemical intercooling with meth. This will help, but you will still get heatsoak. When I spray meth I usually see a 20-50 degree IAT drop depending on how badly heatsoaked I am prior to spraying.

The biggest advantage to meth is not only its cooling capabilities, but also its octane boost. It is like running very high octane gas, in how it helps prevent detonation. I can go WOT while completely heatsoaked with no worries, the meth keeps things safe, although I will be down on power heatsoaked.

That said, the powerband of a twin screw is very very fun for street duties. I think they make for great daily drivers, but if I was more interested in going to the 1/4 mile track and getting good, consistent times I wouldn't suggest a kenne bell for a pushrod setup.

[the.greg]

I found a link to the custom a2a kenne bell I was referring to.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/1125365-diy-kenne-bell-fox-air-air-intercooler-build-list-5.html

[OnyxCobra]

Greg do you spray your meth before or after the KB?

[justinschmidt1]

I feel like a vortech would fit well with a 5.0 anyway since you already have tons of low end power. A KB would just make it a torque monster and most likely would do nothing but spin and not really excel too much top end.

The vortech would allow you to keep traction better down low and pull strong mid range and up top where you really need it with the 5.0.

Vortech would be cheaper, easier, efficient, and keep the heat down big time.

[the.greg]

Greg do you spray your meth before or after the KB?

I spray pre throttle body. I also have relocated my IAT sensor to the actual kenne bell intake manifold to ensure accurate IAT readings which is a must as it allows a much more precise tune especially as it allows the computer to add/pull timing more effectively.

Fyi I have a 4v, but as far as I can tell the concept is the same as neither pushrods nor 4v kb kits can be intercooled traditionally.

[the.greg]

I feel like a vortech would fit well with a 5.0 anyway since you already have tons of low end power. A KB would just make it a torque monster and most likely would do nothing but spin and not really excel too much top end.

The vortech would allow you to keep traction better down low and pull strong mid range and up top where you really need it with the 5.0.

Vortech would be cheaper, easier, efficient, and keep the heat down big time.

I agree. From most of the youtube vids I have seen of 5.0 with kenne bells, they tend to be unable to hook. I think if you were to keep lower gears it might help. I have 4.10s and It is stupid down low, considering the relatively low power level of my car.

But, that kind of adds to the fun factor. I feel that my car "feels" much faster than it actually is. When I hit full boost(which is basically instantly) at any speed below about 45 I get awesome wheelspin. I am on 285 sumitomos though so take that into consideration although I now have a set of nitto 555rs mounted on some 17 inch wheels that I am going to use when the weather warms up in the spring that may help.

[Det_Riot]

brian i keep on telling you, you need this:

[the.greg]

Is that a m112?

[MMR]

brian i keep on telling you, you need this:

lilRoush used to make plates like that for V6s, maybe he can hook you up with one for your V8? ..If he's still up for making these that is..

[justinschmidt1]

The whole instant boost thing is kind of blown out of proportion.

I mean moving it all you can down shift and be well into boost with a Vortech.

Even off the line, it takes a fraction of a second to be into boost

Just because a Vortech isn't producing max boost all the time doesn't mean you won't be making more power either

[Det_Riot]

Yes greg m112.

Really mort? Matt used to make them?

[MMR]

Really mort? Matt used to make them?

yes sir! ...for V6s at least. That was a while ago though. I don't know if he is still up for it..

[Brian]

Thanks for all the info yall! Keep the conversation going. This isn't specifically for me but for information for others who might have the same question.

[OnyxCobra]

I spray pre throttle body. I also have relocated my IAT sensor to the actual kenne bell intake manifold to ensure accurate IAT readings which is a must as it allows a much more precise tune especially as it allows the computer to add/pull timing more effectively.

Fyi I have a 4v, but as far as I can tell the concept is the same as neither pushrods nor 4v kb kits can be intercooled traditionally.

gotcha, i plan on spraying mine before the TB as well. I also have my IAT sensor relocated to the lower intake manifold like the fox bodies had since accurate air temps are especially important with KBs seeing as they're sky high lol.

As far as spinning my car only really spins ridiculously in 1st gear, if you roll onto the throttle gently in 2nd it usually stays hooked for the most part. As far as the torque goes if you're telling me you can stomp a Vortech in first gear and it doesn't spin the tires then I'm really not impressed at all especially since they should be making a good deal more power since they're so efficient.

[justinschmidt1]

gotcha, i plan on spraying mine before the TB as well. I also have my IAT sensor relocated to the lower intake manifold like the fox bodies had since accurate air temps are especially important with KBs seeing as they're sky high lol.

As far as spinning my car only really spins ridiculously in 1st gear, if you roll onto the throttle gently in 2nd it usually stays hooked for the most part. As far as the torque goes if you're telling me you can stomp a Vortech in first gear and it doesn't spin the tires then I'm really not impressed at all especially since they should be making a good deal more power since they're so efficient.

Its more about where the power is being made.

The vortech powerband tends to be more forgiving when it comes to traction on the street I think.

My vortech car would break loose at 65 MPH at the top of 2nd though if I flashed the converter though. Lol

When I had the stock converter it would break crap street tires loose at the top of first gear when power came on strong but with a decent tire you can hook up a lot of power with a vortech setup on the street

Edited December 30, 2012 by justinschmidt1

[Brian]

Personally I know that when the time comes I'll be running a Vortech S-Trim

[the.greg]

A lot of traction comes down to tires and street/track surface.

Overall a vortech is likely the cheapest and will get you down a track fastest and even be "safest" because it will be intercooled.

I'm not as well-informed on the other options, but in my opinion the top two choices would be kb or vortech and they are quite different.

Personally I love hearing blower whine, and the simplicity that a kb has to offer. Although I do sometimes wish I had a BOV and heat soak gets annoying, plus the fact that with a kb you will never get past 450ish rwhp generally speaking, whereas with a vortech you can always build the engine, upgrade the head unit and up the boost. Course when discussing 5.0s I think that is nearing block splitting territory anyway.

[Brian]

I agree with you Greg except one thing, that Vortech kits are not intercooled. There is an available aftercooler but I would never run it. You can opt to add a FMIC setup similar to the Prochargers though but it would be more of a custom setup.

My biggest reasoning for the Vortech over the KB is the heat issue. Another is that 8lbs on a KB vs 8lbs on a Vortech, the Vortech will make more power. So better "bang for your buck" as others have said. KB cars are fun but I would much rather have a KB on a 4.6 over this 5.0 pushrod.

[justinschmidt1]

I agree with that last part brian. Honestly a vortech setup doesn't really need an inter cooler at psi levels below 10 psi cause they don't create much heat

[Brian]

I absolutely agree.

[OnyxCobra]

Its more about where the power is being made.

The main reason I chose the KB for my street car is because of how usable the low end power is vs the Vortech, if i was racing all the time the Vortech would be the better choice. I like the KB cause you don't need to wring out the RPM to get good torque from it, most of the time on the street my car is plenty capable under 4500rpm.

[justinschmidt1]

The main reason I chose the KB for my street car is because of how usable the low end power is vs the Vortech, if i was racing all the time the Vortech would be the better choice. I like the KB cause you don't need to wring out the RPM to get good torque from it, most of the time on the street my car is plenty capable under 4500rpm.

lol.....we are talking pushrod v8s here...they all make great low end torque, you most definitely dont need to even wring out a stock 5.0 to get good torque from it last time I checked.

If the KB's were as cheap as vortechs id be all for them, unfortunately I dont like the cost and the non intercooled factor is a huge no no with a PD blower

[Brian]

Onyx has a KB powered pushrod.....

[justinschmidt1]

Onyx has a KB powered pushrod.....

I know what he has lol...I can see his sig.

Im just saying, its all relative.

A stock 5.0 has great low end even compared to a 4.6

[OnyxCobra]

You can find a really good KB for 2 grand so it's not like they're insanely expensive. As far as low end torque from a 5.0 goes, i'm not sure when the last time you were in a stock one or a head/cam one but the torque they make is not exactly jaw dropping, even after my head cam swap there was still a lot of power to be desired.

And meth is always an option so can people please stop saying you cant intercool a god damn KB.

[Brian]

Yeah but meth doesn't solve heat soaking...... It's been proven (dyno proven) that heat soak is the biggest draw back.

[OnyxCobra]

meth helps a lot with heat soaking, that's a big benefit you get from spraying the meth before the blower; it cools the air and the blower. also its not like they're constantly heat soaked, only when doing many back to back runs have I noticed it. and i'm not running meth yet.

[Brian]

Haha, I know what meth does

What's the point of having FI if you can't do back to back pulls? One and done?

[OnyxCobra]

I never said you couldn't, i have many times with good results.

[95riosnake]

The KB's are fun blowers on pushrod 5.0's but I personally wouldn't (and didn't) waste my time with one. They are great setups on modular applications where intercoolers and larger displacement blowers are available, but on these cars there is just no room to grow. With prochargers, vortechs and paxtons you are at least a pulley swap and at most a head unit swap away from making big(bigger) power when or if you step up to a Dart, R, Boss block or 351-based stroker someday.

You may have seen the build on corral where the fox guy modded his KB to intercool it with a front mount, but honestly it's beyond the average joe's fabrication ability, and is simply just a lot of work.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/1125365-diy-kenne-bell-fox-air-air-intercooler-build-list.html

Not saying that KB's are junk by any means, just not the optimal setup for pushrod 5.0's IMO.

[Brian]

Why did you pick Procharger over Vortech, Dan? I'm glad you made your way in here.

[95riosnake]

I picked Procharger over Vortech because setting up a front mount intercooler was much simpler given the driver's side location of the blower, after all the prochargers were designed to be intercooled. I've seen guys run custom front mount setups with the Vortech blowers but it gets very cramped with the piping to do so. Vortech has the option of their aftercooler, but it is pretty pricey and I'm not sure it fits the SN's, I know you'd need at least a fox TB setup but it may still not fit because our accessory drive sits further back than a fox. I also like the self contained design of the D1SC, I just like the idea of the blower having its own oil rather than sharing the engine's oil. Not having to try to tap the oil pan for the line to the blower was also a plus.

Edited December 30, 2012 by 95riosnake

[Brian]

I picked Procharger over Vortech because setting up a front mount intercooler was much simpler given the driver's side location of the blower, after all the procharger a were designed to be intercooled. I've seen guys run custom front mount setups with the Vortech blowers but it gets very cramped with the piping to do so. I also like the self contained design of the D1SC, I just like the idea of the blower having its own oil rather than sharing the engine's oil. Not having to try to tap the oil pan for the line to the blower was also a plus.

Dan, thanks for your response. Have you noticed any issues with running the pipe right off the blower into the engine bay with regards to heat? And I can understand why you would want the self contained blower but now that Vortech sells self contained blowers would you consider it more?

[the.greg]

meth helps a lot with heat soaking, that's a big benefit you get from spraying the meth before the blower; it cools the air and the blower. also its not like they're constantly heat soaked, only when doing many back to back runs have I noticed it. and i'm not running meth yet.

Do you have a way to monitor your IATs live? I have a sct dashscan hooked up so that I can view my IATs live.

Obviously my setup is different than yours, but honestly after about 20 minutes of driving my IATs are at 150 degrees even without getting into excessive boost. If I get into boost during a hot summer day it only takes one 1st-3rd wot pull to see 180- 200 degrees, and thats with meth. I never saw it go above 205ish, but I definitely lose timing and thereby lose power. And once I see 180-200 it stays there until I am done driving, although when the meth hits it cools it down anywhere from 20-50 degrees depending on how high the IATs were before spraying.

Just curious what your iats look like? Mine may be even less efficient?

[95riosnake]

Dan, thanks for your response. Have you noticed any issues with running the pipe right off the blower into the engine bay with regards to heat? And I can understand why you would want the self contained blower but now that Vortech sells self contained blowers would you consider it more?

I haven't had any problems with the air filter where it is, I am thinking of trying to duct it to the windshield cowl area in the future possibly, but it isn't something I need to do.

The new self-contained Vortech units are nice, but the other reasons I mentioned would still put Procharger on top for me.

[Brian]

The price of a Procharger is up there, IIRC. And I've heard they aren't as efficient as Vortech setups. Not saying Prochargers aren't efficient just Vortech would be more, from what I've heard. The air filter location has always bugged me about Prochargers but everything else I like. I wouldn't mind one.