Pushrod 5.0 Blocks

[revhead347]

Nah, 95 Cobra is a perfect swap candidate for a 408 stroker. 550whp street 408 will wreck 99.9% of stuff you come across.

That stuff is cheap compared to what stuff costs in most other engine swaps. You don't even need a hood if you are ok using drop mounts. IMHO if a 302 is coming out of a pushrod mustang a 302 should NOT be going back in when the 351 is such an easy swap and opens up a SILLY amount of power to you.

That's total BS. The cost of swapping to a 351 is through the roof. You are much better off price wise buying a nice 4 bolt 8.2" block than swapping in a 351 block. It's just more rotating mass and weight to tote around for most street cars.

Kurt

[64bit_Tuning]

That's total BS. The cost of swapping to a 351 is through the roof. You are much better off price wise buying a nice 4 bolt 8.2" block than swapping in a 351 block. It's just more rotating mass and weight to tote around for most street cars.

Kurt

Please explain how the cost of swapping a 351w is through the roof. Last I checked, I have an aftermarket intake in my 347, along with a 28oz imbalance HB and flywheel. I bought LTs and an aftermarket pan. I'm also running a full braided stainless fuel system. So realistically any part that I would have needed for a 351w conversion, I have already paid for in some form or another.

As much as I don't get along with Scotty, I'm going to have to side with him here...

Edited March 9, 2013 by Brian

[Brian]

Removed the mudslinging. Go read the rules before you post. If you have a question then PM me.

[OnyxCobra]

There are downsides to 351s though, weight, they are wider so less room around the engine, what are all the new parts you need? lower intake, disty, headers? anything else? Also, fuck doing solid motor mounts for a street car.

[revhead347]

A new distributor, new engine mounts, different headers, new fuel rails, more expensive intake..etc.etc. 95% of those doing an engine swap aren't even getting close to what a 302 block can handle. So why go with a bigger engine that sucks down more gas, and throws the weight balance of the car off even more?

Kurt

[64bit_Tuning]

A new distributor, new engine mounts, different headers, new fuel rails, more expensive intake..etc.etc. 95% of those doing an engine swap aren't even getting close to what a 302 block can handle. So why go with a bigger engine that sucks down more gas, and throws the weight balance of the car off even more?

Kurt

Most people here have already replaced their distributor, so that's a non issue.

New engine mounts are irrelevant because almost nobody sticks to stock mounts.

Everyone buys aftermarket exhaust, so that's out too.

New fuel rails are not required, you simply modify the crossover hoses in the stock rails.

As for the weight balance shift, aluminum heads and a relocated battery more than make up for the difference between a stock engine and a swapped 351.

You haven't got a leg to stand on Kurt.

[Psychorugby]

Most people here have already replaced their distributor, so that's a non issue.

New engine mounts are irrelevant because almost nobody sticks to stock mounts.

Everyone buys aftermarket exhaust, so that's out too.

New fuel rails are not required, you simply modify the crossover hoses in the stock rails.

As for the weight balance shift, aluminum heads and a relocated battery more than make up for the difference between a stock engine and a swapped 351.

You haven't got a leg to stand on Kurt.

I keep going back and forth on this because of Kurt's (and others') advice. The expense of a new hood and paint, and custom headers is the biggest difference. That's nearly $3k in parts, shipping, and paint right there. The motor builds are about the same for what I intended at $5-6k, but adding another $3k has so far ruled the 351w out for me.

[64bit_Tuning]

I keep going back and forth on this because of Kurt's (and others') advice. The expense of a new hood and paint, and custom headers is the biggest difference. That's nearly $3k in parts, shipping, and paint right there. The motor builds are about the same for what I intended at $5-6k, but adding another $3k has so far ruled the 351w out for me.

Both bbk and mac, make swap headers... You don't need custom pieces.

Also, my last hood was ~$350 shipped to my door, and cost me $150 to paint it. So where you are getting this astrobimically inaccurate $3000 price tag is well beyond me, but you are clearly, severely misinformed. If you want clear, exact and concise information about doing a 351w swap.. pm me. I won't tell you lies and half truths like revhead.

Edited March 10, 2013 by The Mk2

[Psychorugby]

Both bbk and mac, make swap headers... You don't need custom pieces.

Also, my last hood was ~$350 shipped to my door, and cost me $150 to paint it. So where you are getting this astrobimically inaccurate $3000 price tag is well beyond me, but you are clearly, severely misinformed. If you want clear, exact and concise information about doing a 351w swap.. pm me. I won't tell you lies and half truths like revhead.

Hadn't gotten confirmation that Fox swap headers worked on the SNs... so $350 for hood, I figured $500 to paint, and the custom headers (Kooks I think) I found online were $1,800... Just under $3k. I'll PM in a sec.

[itsblown93]

You'd suggest getting a DART over a BOSS? The BOSS will hold 800s if I recall correctly.

I have been wishing recently I had either gotten a terminator or a '98 Cobra

the Boss block will hold way more then 800s. they should handle just as much as the dart shp block. And the guy from ford strokers told me the shp block will handle up to 1200 hp.

[itsblown93]

heres a thread about the DART shp vs. the BOSS block i started over on corral a lot of good INFO

http://forums.corral.net/forums/94-95-tech/1345187-boss-302-block-dart-shp-block.html

Edited March 10, 2013 by itsblue95

[Det_Riot]

link?

[itsblown93]

sorry bryan fixed

[Det_Riot]

no prob mang!

[Brian]

I really hope to go through FordStrokers for the motor. I am watching YouTube videos right now. People making over 400rwhp with their 347 stroker longblocks. I'm sold.

[itsblown93]

yeah. since the day i sold the blue car ive been kicking myself in the nuts because i want a 363 built by woody and never got around to it

[scottydsntknow]

I often think about a million things I would have done differently with my white 95 Cobra. 1st would have been to keep it garaged at all costs after I left the military the first time to finish school and had to move into an apt with no garage or carport. Should have got a storage unit and just sucked up the $120/mo for one big enough to put a car in. My current 98 is in the garage, my house HAD to have a garage and the car does not leave the garage ever unless it is sunny with 0% chance of rain and if its winter time no salt crud on the roads.

One of the other things I would have done is to NOT bother to do anything whatsoever with the 302 and go straight for a 351 based build. No 331, no 347, no 363, they are all completely pointless when for not very much more money than a stock 302 block based build you can get a 351 based build, and for LESS than a DART 302 block based build. Stock roller will support 700whp so 0 reason to go with a DART, I have no idea when you'd need more than that honestly, a properly built 408 is going to make like 550whp anyway and be perfectly streetable. And if you do need any sort of HP number approaching that you'll already be in the $15k range anyway so what is $2k more?

I would not try to swap a 351 into my current 98 not because of any sort of difficulty/compatibility, but because of emissions laws and the fact that for my OBDII car in this state I do not have to get a sniffer test. Just plug in, throw no emissions codes and good to go.

Edited March 11, 2013 by scottydsntknow

[revhead347]

Well I guess if you want to make 302 power with a 351 block, then the cost is about the same. I usually just don't think of it from that perspective. Aluminum heads, a tubular K-member and a battery relocation still doesn't make up for the poor weight distribution the car already has with a 302.

Kurt

Edited March 11, 2013 by revhead347

[scottydsntknow]

Weight difference in the 2 blocks is not that big a deal. Not to mention the DART 302 SHP blocks weigh DOUBLE what a stock 302 roller does.

Edited March 11, 2013 by scottydsntknow

[64bit_Tuning]

Weight difference in the 2 blocks is not that big a deal. Not to mention the DART 302 SHP blocks weigh DOUBLE what a stock 302 roller does.

It's what, 65-70 lbs? You remove 45-60 by doing a full tubular k and arm swap. 50lbs from going to aluminum heads. Move the battery to the back and you effectively shift 40lbs.

So right there, three things completely offset the weight of the engine AND still improve weight distribution over stock. Not to mention that a GT-40 headed 351w makes 60 more bhp over a stock cobra. Imagine a 351w with a nice set of aluminums. Sure it might make less than a 347, but you slap a blower on that 351 and you have a cheaper RELIABLE route to 600+ HP

[itsblown93]

I often think about a million things I would have done differently with my white 95 Cobra. 1st would have been to keep it garaged at all costs after I left the military the first time to finish school and had to move into an apt with no garage or carport. Should have got a storage unit and just sucked up the $120/mo for one big enough to put a car in. My current 98 is in the garage, my house HAD to have a garage and the car does not leave the garage ever unless it is sunny with 0% chance of rain and if its winter time no salt crud on the roads.

One of the other things I would have done is to NOT bother to do anything whatsoever with the 302 and go straight for a 351 based build. No 331, no 347, no 363, they are all completely pointless when for not very much more money than a stock 302 block based build you can get a 351 based build, and for LESS than a DART 302 block based build. Stock roller will support 700whp so 0 reason to go with a DART, I have no idea when you'd need more than that honestly, a properly built 408 is going to make like 550whp anyway and be perfectly streetable. And if you do need any sort of HP number approaching that you'll already be in the $15k range anyway so what is $2k more?

I would not try to swap a 351 into my current 98 not because of any sort of difficulty/compatibility, but because of emissions laws and the fact that for my OBDII car in this state I do not have to get a sniffer test. Just plug in, throw no emissions codes and good to go.

just because you think there is no point in building a 302 block doesnt mean everyone else want to go to a 351. some people dont want to take the time to gather all the parts or even finding a decent block. some just want to rebuild the 8.2 deck since they already have it. plus if your going to build a 351 block your going to want bigger head, better, exhaust, bigger intake which all cost more money. a good set of AFR 185 will be fine on a 331-347 but will cholke the hell out of a 383-427. you can make plenty of power out of a 302 based motor. I mean my friends drag car is only a 349 and it make over a 1000whp with a little ysi blower on it and will make even more this year with a turbo.

[Brian]

Personally I'm staying with a 302 based configuration hense why I'm interested in the 347 build with a dart block, per Woody at FordStrokers. I also have a friend (who's a member here) who has a built 363 with a YSI in his race car that runs 8s and makes over 1000hp. I'm with Blue on this one.

[blwnbyu]

I often think about a million things I would have done differently with my white 95 Cobra. 1st would have been to keep it garaged at all costs after I left the military the first time to finish school and had to move into an apt with no garage or carport. Should have got a storage unit and just sucked up the $120/mo for one big enough to put a car in. My current 98 is in the garage, my house HAD to have a garage and the car does not leave the garage ever unless it is sunny with 0% chance of rain and if its winter time no salt crud on the roads.

One of the other things I would have done is to NOT bother to do anything whatsoever with the 302 and go straight for a 351 based build. No 331, no 347, no 363, they are all completely pointless when for not very much more money than a stock 302 block based build you can get a 351 based build, and for LESS than a DART 302 block based build. Stock roller will support 700whp so 0 reason to go with a DART, I have no idea when you'd need more than that honestly, a properly built 408 is going to make like 550whp anyway and be perfectly streetable. And if you do need any sort of HP number approaching that you'll already be in the $15k range anyway so what is $2k more?

I would not try to swap a 351 into my current 98 not because of any sort of difficulty/compatibility, but because of emissions laws and the fact that for my OBDII car in this state I do not have to get a sniffer test. Just plug in, throw no emissions codes and good to go.

I'm with this guy... If I happen to hurt my 302, I'll simply throw it in the garbage... Swapping to a 351/408 is NOT that expensive, especially if you were going to buy an intake and headers anyway...

The 408 will make loads more torque and power, and you can get a good SEASONED block that will hold reliably up to 700rwhp, which is as far as I'd ever want to go anyway...

Forget buying a $1600 block for a fucking 302.. That's just dumb.. You can get a nice, forged 408 shortblock from woody for $3 grand... Sounds like a good deal to me.. Used intakes are readily available.. I could use a new dizzy anyway, and can sell my current headers to put towards swap headers, plus my BBK's wouldn't be optimal for a bigger 302 based combo anyway..

With all but the biggest intakes, a 408 will fit under my hood with no problem, and a set of aluminum heads will offset the weight difference..

The biggest issue would be how to stop breaking trannies after it's in..

I would either pulley my S-trim to the moon and make 600rwhp, or try to find a T trim and pulley it the moon and shoot for closer to 700..

This is something I have put ALOT of thought into over the years... I see it as a complete waste to stay 302.. It makes no sense, at all.. Add it all up.. The 408 shortblock WILL be cheaper after you add in machinework and everything else to actually make it into a shortblock.. And you could have had 60 or more Cubic inches and a seasoned, heat cycled block.. Did I mention a Dart Iron Eagle is heavy as fuck and weighs very close to what a windsor block weighs anyhow?

The shitty ass block is the NUMBER ONE thing that pisses me off about a pushrod Cobra.. The mod motor guys have it made.. Replace rods and pistons, and good for 800rwhp or more...

It's funny, I bought my Cobra because I already had owned a 2000 GT and mod motor parts were hard to come by and expensive.. Now it's honestly flipped.. Newer cars are easier to tune, make power, basically everything is easier except adding cams..

[revhead347]

Internet advice is free and you get what you pay for. If you build an engine based on what you read on a forum, you're going to be that guy with a big 351 engine that shows up to friday night drags and runs a 14.2. If you are serious about building an engine, call Woody at Fordstrokers and tell him what you want out of the car and what your budget is. I can pretty much guarantee he's going to sell you a 302 based engine, but let him explain to you why you should run a 302 based engine.

You can build a nice street car with a 302 based engine that makes around 400hp with an almost stock fuel system, a set of subframe connectors, and even a modded T5. If you go to a 351, you are looking at spending at least $1000 more on the heads, or more than that on an expensive forced induction system. You're looking at dumping bare minimum of $2500 more on the transmission, an extra $1000 on the rear end, another $1000 in chassis modifications, another $2500 in suspension. Those are just the big items, before we add in all the nickel and dime parts. If you don't spend the money on those things, you are lugging around extra weight, and spending more on gas for no reason. But if you still think bigger is better, we have a 460 Mustang in the shop right now that's probably getting parted out. It's going to be the complete deal, engine, completely built C6, driveshaft, K-member, and front suspension.

Kurt

[64bit_Tuning]

Internet advice is free and you get what you pay for. If you build an engine based on what you read on a forum, you're going to be that guy with a big 351 engine that shows up to friday night drags and runs a 14.2. If you are serious about building an engine, call Woody at Fordstrokers and tell him what you want out of the car and what your budget is. I can pretty much guarantee he's going to sell you a 302 based engine, but let him explain to you why you should run a 302 based engine.

You can build a nice street car with a 302 based engine that makes around 400hp with an almost stock fuel system, a set of subframe connectors, and even a modded T5. If you go to a 351, you are looking at spending at least $1000 more on the heads, or more than that on an expensive forced induction system. You're looking at dumping bare minimum of $2500 more on the transmission, an extra $1000 on the rear end, another $1000 in chassis modifications, another $2500 in suspension. Those are just the big items, before we add in all the nickel and dime parts. If you don't spend the money on those things, you are lugging around extra weight, and spending more on gas for no reason. But if you still think bigger is better, we have a 460 Mustang in the shop right now that's probably getting parted out. It's going to be the complete deal, engine, completely built C6, driveshaft, K-member, and front suspension.

Kurt

Please stop posting thus nonsense... A tremec can handle a Windsor without an issue, so can a 4r70w. Both of which are inexpensive. My 31 spline rear will take the abuse from a 351w all day long, and cylinder heads for a 351 are no more expensive than those for a 302.

You do not have a 351+ so you know not what it takes to install one. Please keep this crap to yourself, as it is you who is spreading the poor internet information.

[revhead347]

I've done a good number of 351 installs for customers. Most of the regretted it and wished they had done a 347. I've broken my Tremec twice with my little 347. There is no way I would put it behind a big torque 351 build. Big heads cost big money. Like I said, talk to someone like Woody who has built 100s of SBFs, and 95% of the time, he is going to recommend a 302 engine.

Kurt

[scottydsntknow]

Funny, Woody recommended me a NA 408 when I said I wanted a 500 whp street car a few years back.

Also who the hell regrets a properly built 408?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[64bit_Tuning]

Funny, Woody recommended me a NA 408 when I said I wanted a 500 whp street car a few years back.

Also who the hell regrets a properly built 408?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

I regret building a 347, because I want more than 400hp, and since my CR is so high, I can't use FI. Had I used my same components on a 351w block with similar internals, I could toss on a s/c or turbo setup and make an easy 550 HP. Plenty enough to make a 10 second car that has nice off boost street manners.

Which is part of the reason I am trying to sell my 347 now.

[revhead347]

And that's what a 351 block is for. But most people don't want that much power. I have a 500whp car. It breaks, and parts are expensive. 95% of that people with Mustangs out there aren't looking for 500whp. Most people drive their car on street, some of them everyday, and really don't care how fast the car is at the drag strip. They are looking for a car with a little more power to have a little more fun. Not necessarily to spend $320 on a set of drag radials every 2000 miles. When someone asks you what kind of block they should run, you have to answer the question in the context of what they are interested in, not what you consider ideal.

Kurt

[64bit_Tuning]

And that is exactly the point that scotty and I are trying to make. A very low budget 351w swap can make 300hp and drive just like a stock engines car, or you can push for a ton of HP. Swapping to a 351w gives you a much more versitile platform to begin with. Going straight for a 8.2" stroked limits you. It's like an instant dead end.

[blwnbyu]

Internet advice is free and you get what you pay for. If you build an engine based on what you read on a forum, you're going to be that guy with a big 351 engine that shows up to friday night drags and runs a 14.2. If you are serious about building an engine, call Woody at Fordstrokers and tell him what you want out of the car and what your budget is. I can pretty much guarantee he's going to sell you a 302 based engine, but let him explain to you why you should run a 302 based engine.

You can build a nice street car with a 302 based engine that makes around 400hp with an almost stock fuel system, a set of subframe connectors, and even a modded T5. If you go to a 351, you are looking at spending at least $1000 more on the heads, or more than that on an expensive forced induction system. You're looking at dumping bare minimum of $2500 more on the transmission, an extra $1000 on the rear end, another $1000 in chassis modifications, another $2500 in suspension. Those are just the big items, before we add in all the nickel and dime parts. If you don't spend the money on those things, you are lugging around extra weight, and spending more on gas for no reason. But if you still think bigger is better, we have a 460 Mustang in the shop right now that's probably getting parted out. It's going to be the complete deal, engine, completely built C6, driveshaft, K-member, and front suspension.

Kurt

Good god man.. I said I've been thinking about this for years.. You don't think I've already spoken to woody?? I'm already making more than 400 horse on a stock T5.. I will NOT be spending $1,000 in chassis modifications, or $2500 in suspension that I wouldn't be already spending on a built 363 as well... You try to make it sound that it's gonna cost you 5 grand more in supporting parts to run a windsor over an aftermarket 302.

WHY IN THE HELL WOULD ANYONE BUILD A DART 347 OR 363 JUST TO MAKE 400 HORSEPOWER??????

You have got to be kidding me.. You don't think it would take big heads to make power out of a 363 either? Umm, pretty sure I would run 205's on a big bore 363 and on a 408, so your argument there is mum..

You said the choice has to be in context to what the customer is asking.. Pretty sure the OP was asking about aftermarket blocks because he wants to make more than 400 horsepower, or at least have the option to do so.

Sorry chief, I haven't seen any A4 or R blocks around lately, but I do know windsor rollers are plentiful.

And as far as what Woody recommends, I'm pretty sure his recommendations to go windsor FAR outnumber his recommendations to spend more that $4 grand on a dart shortblock for someone who only wants to make 5 or 600 horsepower reliably. I can dig quote after quote off of Corral and Hardcore..

I'm happy for you that you like your 347... But that doesn't mean everyone else would be better off making the same choice, but you argue it like it's the best thing there is because that's what you went with..

And in part, I will agree, IF you only want to make 4-450 horse, I would not in any way waste my time thinking about a Windsor, BUT, if you do want to go north of that, the EASIEST way to do so is more cubes, and the better stock block of a 351, on top of the fact that I have never heard of anyone complaining about how awesome the torque is in their windsor swaps..

I plan on a fairly mild, low rpm build, with 205's and a very streetable cam, and as much boost as my little old S-trim can throw at it.. Simple..Reliable, and not excessively expensive..

I've done a good number of 351 installs for customers. Most of the regretted it and wished they had done a 347. I've broken my Tremec twice with my little 347. There is no way I would put it behind a big torque 351 build. Big heads cost big money. Like I said, talk to someone like Woody who has built 100s of SBFs, and 95% of the time, he is going to recommend a 302 engine.

Kurt

[revhead347]

I don't disagree with all that. The point of my argument is that just because a 302 is coming out, doesn't mean you should always put a 351 in. There are different engines for different applications. A 351 that makes 300hp is completely pointless unless you are running in some specific race class that requires it. You can make that kind of power with heads and cam on a stock 302 without any conversion costs. Woody sells more 8.2 deck height engines than anything else. So does CHP, so does DSS, so do all the others.

Kurt

[itsblown93]

also some want a dart,boss,a4,R blocks because they may only want 400whp right now and know they wont ever have to buy another block when they do want a lot more power. the 351 is a good and cheap block the will handle up to 700whp but it just doesnt fit some people. I myself loved the challenge of making the little 8.2 deck make good power does that mean everyone else likes to do that? No. some like the 8.2 and others like the windsor at the end of the day its what the car owner wants to do and no one else.

[scottydsntknow]

ROFL the SHP 351 costs the same as the SHP 302 and you'll spend just as much or more money making the 302 keep up. But yeah its obviously the owner's call.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Edited March 11, 2013 by scottydsntknow

[revhead347]

If there was never any point in not using a 8.7"+ deckheight enigne, then why are there 3+ different 4 bolt main 8.2" deck height blocks on the market? Why is over half the starting grid in NMRA running an 8.2" deck height? Why does Ford sell more 8.2' Boss blocks than 8.7" boss blocks? What knowledge do you have that the rest of the performance SBF community is missing? In fact, why would Ford have put a 302 in the Mustang in the first place when a 351 is just as cheap to make? Or near as makes no difference anway. For me personally, if I have the choice of running a 4 bolt main 8.2" deck height block, or some 40 year old 2 bolt main block that came out of a truck in a junkyard, I'm going for the 4 bolt. It will hold more power, consume less fuel, you can rev it to 8000 rpms all day, and by the time you put a girdle and buy link bar lifters for the 2 bolt main block, the cost difference is negligible. Different engines for different applications.

To the OP, when you are ready to buy an engine, have a good conversation with an engine builder about what you expect out of the enigne. Have a real budget in mind, and ask for an honest opinion before your interject your own opinion. Also talk to a transmission builder about what you are goign to need to put behind that engine. Price out everything you could conceivably think about buying for the engine including fluids and filters and include that in your budget. I'd have at least $1000 for fudge factor before you went ahead with it.

Kurt

[Brian]

My plan is a 347 from FordStrokers, T56 trans, and boost later in life. Thanks for all the info Kurt. I agree with what you and Blue are saying.

[revhead347]

Look into the new Magnum T56s. They run about the same in price as the old school T56. It's the same transmission as the TR6060 that's in the new GT500, Viper, and Aston Martin. It has more torque capacity, and shifts smoother than the old T56 due to a triple blocker ring configuration. There is a guy on ebay that packages it with absolutely everything you need for around $4K, including a scattershield and clutch. I'm not exactly sure the clutch he sells with it will fit your needs, but I've heard you can work a deal minus the clutch if you want to use something else. It runs about the same price to put a standard T56 in the car no matter how you slice it. I talked to TTC on the phone when they introduced the transmission. They used the T56 name for marketing reasons instead of calling it a TR6060. They figured no one would know what that was, and wouldn't buy it.

Kurt

[95opal]

302..351 build according to what you want. If you asking about aftermarket blocks your obviously looking to make north of 500+hp and no matter the CID its not cheap. Your also not gonna be looking to skimp on quality parts either and quality = $ no matter displacement.

[scottydsntknow]

If there was never any point in not using a 8.7"+ deckheight enigne, then why are there 3+ different 4 bolt main 8.2" deck height blocks on the market? Why is over half the starting grid in NMRA running an 8.2" deck height? Why does Ford sell more 8.2' Boss blocks than 8.7" boss blocks? What knowledge do you have that the rest of the performance SBF community is missing? In fact, why would Ford have put a 302 in the Mustang in the first place when a 351 is just as cheap to make? Or near as makes no difference anway. For me personally, if I have the choice of running a 4 bolt main 8.2" deck height block, or some 40 year old 2 bolt main block that came out of a truck in a junkyard, I'm going for the 4 bolt. It will hold more power, consume less fuel, you can rev it to 8000 rpms all day, and by the time you put a girdle and buy link bar lifters for the 2 bolt main block, the cost difference is negligible. Different engines for different applications.

To the OP, when you are ready to buy an engine, have a good conversation with an engine builder about what you expect out of the enigne. Have a real budget in mind, and ask for an honest opinion before your interject your own opinion. Also talk to a transmission builder about what you are goign to need to put behind that engine. Price out everything you could conceivably think about buying for the engine including fluids and filters and include that in your budget. I'd have at least $1000 for fudge factor before you went ahead with it.

Kurt

1 - 3+ aftermarket 302 blocks are out because there is a demand for them pure and simple, just like there is a demand for 351 based strokers, modulars and other stuff. People do like what they know even if it might not be the best option, not everyone can pull/drop engines and do all the work in their driveway. Some people live in apartments and can't. However, when a topic comes up about aftermarket blocks it means the OP is looking for more than the stock 302 block can handle. In ALL cases the most bang for the buck and probably most economical when talking about getting to bigger power levels is going to be the 351 roller. As for why people still go 302... familiarity, not knowing any better and people on the internet telling them it is the way to go? Or they just want a 300whp street motor and at that point a stock 302 bottom with a good HCI will do that without having to pull apart or swap any motors. Also people can be STUPIDLY cheap like going for a 302 DART build so they don't have to buy/paint/mount an aftermarket hood/swap headers/accessory brackets and a few other minor swap parts even though it would cost them less... Seen that... Also baffles me when guys put fully forged rotating assemblies into stock 302 based 331/347s when the stock 302 rotating assembly can handle more power than the block can...

2 - NMRA is a completely different animal than the street where yes, every little bit of weight reduction does help. When those dudes are running ridiculous RPM and boost numbers and only care about the very top end of the power band, a 363 might have an advantage over a 408 in an extreme example like that. Those are also the guys making well over 700whp and their motors cost more than a lot of people make in a year.

3 - I have no knowledge that the rest of the SBF community was missing. Drive or ride in a NA 408 making 500-600whp and get back to me as to exactly why you wouldn't go that route when its cheaper than a DART based 302 and better up to the 700whp cap. A stock block 351 is also lighter than a DART 302... just sayin.

4 - Ford put a 302 into the Mustang for many reasons. Gas mileage, cost of materials (metal and such which does not translate into this subject at all as DART 302s and 351s are the same price with 351w rollers being way cheaper than either), fitment in the body and weight savings. I'm sure there were other reasons. There is also a reason the 95 Cobra R got a 351 vs a built 302 as well as the top end Saleens of those years...

5 - 40 year old block? Linkbar lifters? Girdle? Wow... yeah... well seeing as the f4-f6 blocks are 20 years old at the oldest, don't require linkbars and putting a girdle in anything will only work to hold the pieces of a motor together in a neat little pile after it lets go...

Stock blocked build 347 is going to be good for anywhere from 350-450whp depending on the parts used, compression etc... Block is probably not safe to run much higher than 450-500whp and then it may experience capwalk even with a girdle. A 408 build will not be much more, AFR 205s are not really that much more than 185s and the rest of the parts are priced pretty close. Also able to justify putting forged stuff into a 351 stroker as it actually needs it (351 block is much stronger than the stock internals whereas a 302 block will let go long before the stock rotating assy) and the return on a 408 vs a 347 will be huge power wise accross the board. TONS more low end as well and able to crack 500whp without even trying and a perfectly streetable mild custom cam.

DART blocks of any build will be substantially more than the stock block 351 based stroker and as I stated and others have stated, if you are not shooting for over 700whp there really is no reason to go with a DART when the stock 351 will hold it. If you are worried about getting a known good block and having it properly done, just buy a 408 stroker shortblock from Fordstrokers. Magnafluxed, fully checked out by Woody (who has recommended a 351 based build to me and others on here even in this very thread) and ready for your heads/intake. If you are still not convinced, call up Fordstrokers, talk to Woody yourself and get the advice straight from the horse's mouth vs random people on the internet.

But again, to each their own. As you can tell I am a big proponent of the 351 and I really fail to see any downside to it at all. Want 300-325whp street motor? Throw a TFS HCI onto a low mileage 302 shortblock and roll. Anything more than that go with a 351. If you require 4 figure horsepower, than you're going to be spending $30k and the price of either DART or other aftermarket block is not going to be very much of a factor...

Edited March 12, 2013 by scottydsntknow

[blwnbyu]

Well said mate!

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