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Brian

Pushrod 5.0 Blocks

By Brian, in Pushrods

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revhead347 Advanced Member

revhead347

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Just so you know, my stock block 347 put a hair shy of 500hp to the wheels, and 635ft.lbs of torque. There are a few guys putting down 900hp on stock block 302s with well tuned turbo setups. There is a nominal difference in strength between the two blocks, but it's not worth getting bent out of shape over. The key advantage to the 351 block is that the main webbing is thick enough to convert it to a 4 bolt or splayed mains. If you do that there is definately a strength difference. If you stick with the standard 2 bolt on an N/A setup, it's not worth much more than a 302 block unless you have a good turbocharger and you don't have to rev it that high. I've driven a car that put down over 1000 to the wheels. It was an A4 block 347. The owner wanted a 3.4" stroke so he could run it out to 8500 rpms and still use it on the street.

Kurt

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scottydsntknow Advanced Member

scottydsntknow

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Just so you know, my stock block 347 put a hair shy of 500hp to the wheels, and 635ft.lbs of torque. There are a few guys putting down 900hp on stock block 302s with well tuned turbo setups. There is a nominal difference in strength between the two blocks, but it's not worth getting bent out of shape over. The key advantage to the 351 block is that the main webbing is thick enough to convert it to a 4 bolt or splayed mains. If you do that there is definately a strength difference. If you stick with the standard 2 bolt on an N/A setup, it's not worth much more than a 302 block unless you have a good turbocharger and you don't have to rev it that high. I've driven a car that put down over 1000 to the wheels. It was an A4 block 347. The owner wanted a 3.4" stroke so he could run it out to 8500 rpms and still use it on the street.

Kurt

There is so much bad info on this I don't have the patience to go over it on a smartphone on tapatalk... Yeah a 351 isn't really any stronger than a 302 and you can safely run 900hp on a stock 302 block with a well tuned turbo. Uh huh... Do go on.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Edited by scottydsntknow
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64bit_Tuning Advanced Member

64bit_Tuning

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There is so much bad info on this I don't have the patience to go over it on a smartphone on tapatalk... Yeah a 351 isn't really any stronger than a 302 and you can safely run 900hp on a stock 302 block with a well tuned turbo. Uh huh... Do go on.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Lol, he is still posting? I already put him on ignore because I feel my iq decreasing with each if his posts that I read.

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95opal Senior Member

95opal

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1 - 3+ aftermarket 302 blocks are out because there is a demand for them pure and simple, just like there is a demand for 351 based strokers, modulars and other stuff. People do like what they know even if it might not be the best option, not everyone can pull/drop engines and do all the work in their driveway. Some people live in apartments and can't. However, when a topic comes up about aftermarket blocks it means the OP is looking for more than the stock 302 block can handle. In ALL cases the most bang for the buck and probably most economical when talking about getting to bigger power levels is going to be the 351 roller. As for why people still go 302... familiarity, not knowing any better and people on the internet telling them it is the way to go? Or they just want a 300whp street motor and at that point a stock 302 bottom with a good HCI will do that without having to pull apart or swap any motors. Also people can be STUPIDLY cheap like going for a 302 DART build so they don't have to buy/paint/mount an aftermarket hood/swap headers/accessory brackets and a few other minor swap parts even though it would cost them less... Seen that... Also baffles me when guys put fully forged rotating assemblies into stock 302 based 331/347s when the stock 302 rotating assembly can handle more power than the block can...

2 - NMRA is a completely different animal than the street where yes, every little bit of weight reduction does help. When those dudes are running ridiculous RPM and boost numbers and only care about the very top end of the power band, a 363 might have an advantage over a 408 in an extreme example like that. Those are also the guys making well over 700whp and their motors cost more than a lot of people make in a year.

3 - I have no knowledge that the rest of the SBF community was missing. Drive or ride in a NA 408 making 500-600whp and get back to me as to exactly why you wouldn't go that route when its cheaper than a DART based 302 and better up to the 700whp cap. A stock block 351 is also lighter than a DART 302... just sayin.

4 - Ford put a 302 into the Mustang for many reasons. Gas mileage, cost of materials (metal and such which does not translate into this subject at all as DART 302s and 351s are the same price with 351w rollers being way cheaper than either), fitment in the body and weight savings. I'm sure there were other reasons. There is also a reason the 95 Cobra R got a 351 vs a built 302 as well as the top end Saleens of those years...

5 - 40 year old block? Linkbar lifters? Girdle? Wow... yeah... well seeing as the f4-f6 blocks are 20 years old at the oldest, don't require linkbars and putting a girdle in anything will only work to hold the pieces of a motor together in a neat little pile after it lets go...

Stock blocked build 347 is going to be good for anywhere from 350-450whp depending on the parts used, compression etc... Block is probably not safe to run much higher than 450-500whp and then it may experience capwalk even with a girdle. A 408 build will not be much more, AFR 205s are not really that much more than 185s and the rest of the parts are priced pretty close. Also able to justify putting forged stuff into a 351 stroker as it actually needs it (351 block is much stronger than the stock internals whereas a 302 block will let go long before the stock rotating assy) and the return on a 408 vs a 347 will be huge power wise accross the board. TONS more low end as well and able to crack 500whp without even trying and a perfectly streetable mild custom cam.

DART blocks of any build will be substantially more than the stock block 351 based stroker and as I stated and others have stated, if you are not shooting for over 700whp there really is no reason to go with a DART when the stock 351 will hold it. If you are worried about getting a known good block and having it properly done, just buy a 408 stroker shortblock from Fordstrokers. Magnafluxed, fully checked out by Woody (who has recommended a 351 based build to me and others on here even in this very thread) and ready for your heads/intake. If you are still not convinced, call up Fordstrokers, talk to Woody yourself and get the advice straight from the horse's mouth vs random people on the internet.

But again, to each their own. As you can tell I am a big proponent of the 351 and I really fail to see any downside to it at all. Want 300-325whp street motor? Throw a TFS HCI onto a low mileage 302 shortblock and roll. Anything more than that go with a 351. If you require 4 figure horsepower, than you're going to be spending $30k and the price of either DART or other aftermarket block is not going to be very much of a factor...

Scotty you have some valid points, but they really only apply to a stroked 351 vs stock block 302 strokers. Its all well and good for 400-500hp but your argument is pretty mute when it comes to going beyond that point. Seems like you have been brainwashed into thinking a 351 based platform is the ultimate for making hp. The problem is that nobody ever is content with the power they make forever. Meaning that great 351 I just swaped in and had to buy all those parts for isnt going to handle any more power cause I have to worry about the block at this point...back to square one.

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scottydsntknow Advanced Member

scottydsntknow

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Argument is not mute beyond 400-500whp where did you get that idea? For a stock 302 block 500whp is about the limit it is, not for a stock block 351. Not sure how many times/ways it can be explained...

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Edited by scottydsntknow
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64bit_Tuning Advanced Member

64bit_Tuning

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Argument is not mute beyond 400-500whp where did you get that idea? For a stock 302 block 500whp is about the limit it is, not for a stock block 351. Not sure how many times/ways it can be explained...

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Just give up... They won't ever understand.

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revhead347 Advanced Member

revhead347

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Scotty you have some valid points, but they really only apply to a stroked 351 vs stock block 302 strokers. Its all well and good for 400-500hp but your argument is pretty mute when it comes to going beyond that point. Seems like you have been brainwashed into thinking a 351 based platform is the ultimate for making hp. The problem is that nobody ever is content with the power they make forever. Meaning that great 351 I just swaped in and had to buy all those parts for isnt going to handle any more power cause I have to worry about the block at this point...back to square one.

I think satisfaction comes from age. The older I get, the more satisfied with the car I am. It seems that when I sprayed the car all the time, all I ever did was fix drivetrain parts. I haven't filled my bottle in like 5 years. I'm just happy to run around on the power the car makes n/a.

Kurt

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revhead347 Advanced Member

revhead347

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Oh we understand, and your point is valid. You can put more power through a 2 bolt 351 block than a 2 bolt 302 block. I just like to dispell the myth of block horsepower limitations whenever I can. The internet is a riddled with bad information about how engines work. There is no fixed hp number limit to a block. You can generalize a little bit, but there's a lot to it. RPM efficiency and tune have a lot more to do with the longevity of an engine than the the single measurement of hp coming out the back. It goes back to the definition of Learning, a change in behavior as a result of experience. If you have been in the Mustang business for an extended period of time then you have seen a huge number of 302 blocks fail. But that's a piece of raw data that most people take out of context. There 1000s of Mustang guys out there pushing old tired 302s with stock components passed the limit of what they can handle compared to a much smaller number of people using a 351 build. So of course you are going to see a much larger number of 302 blocks breaking. After almost 20 years of wrenching on cars, I've seen it all, or it seems like it. I've seen some people put down some amazing numbers on stock 302 blocks, and I've seen 351s with HCI crack before they are broke in.

Kurt

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95opal Senior Member

95opal

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Argument is not mute beyond 400-500whp where did you get that idea? For a stock 302 block 500whp is about the limit it is, not for a stock block 351. Not sure how many times/ways it can be explained...

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Your preaching to the wrong guy. I know the limit of a stock block, also know the limit of a stock 351 block, wich is why I stated your point is mute . Sure I can build a 351 based motor, but like I said then Im back to square one with a shit ton of parts and a block thats only going to handle 700hp. Yay fucking me. Ill have 10k tied up in my new combo and she should see north of 600+. And when I get bored its a simple blower swap and a bit more boost to up the anti, no worrying about a block yada yada. So again yes your point is mute. Either way you go hp isnt cheap so all this talk about money is pointless. A block I dont have to ever worry about ..priceless in my eyes.

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revhead347 Advanced Member

revhead347

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Your preaching to the wrong guy. I know the limit of a stock block, also know the limit of a stock 351 block, wich is why I stated your point is mute . Sure I can build a 351 based motor, but like I said then Im back to square one with a shit ton of parts and a block thats only going to handle 700hp. Yay fucking me. Ill have 10k tied up in my new combo and she should see north of 600+. And when I get bored its a simple blower swap and a bit more boost to up the anti, no worrying about a block yada yada. So again yes your point is mute. Either way you go hp isnt cheap so all this talk about money is pointless. A block I dont have to ever worry about ..priceless in my eyes.

I couldn't agree more. Spend the money once on a nice block and never worry about it again. My biggest regret on this last engine was not tracking down a good 4 bolt main block for it. I'm sure if I had gone through all my receipts now and added them up, another $1000 or so for a good block wouldn't have made much difference.

Kurt

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scottydsntknow Advanced Member

scottydsntknow

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Your preaching to the wrong guy. I know the limit of a stock block, also know the limit of a stock 351 block, wich is why I stated your point is mute . Sure I can build a 351 based motor, but like I said then Im back to square one with a shit ton of parts and a block thats only going to handle 700hp. Yay fucking me. Ill have 10k tied up in my new combo and she should see north of 600+. And when I get bored its a simple blower swap and a bit more boost to up the anti, no worrying about a block yada yada. So again yes your point is mute. Either way you go hp isnt cheap so all this talk about money is pointless. A block I dont have to ever worry about ..priceless in my eyes.

Lol I misunderstood your other post but yeah if you know you'll be wanting more than 700 go for a DART.

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330CubeGt Senior Member

330CubeGt

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When I read this thread I feel like im back in the early 90s lol.

Why not do some reading and research and you will find that in the year 2013 a Modular based build can take just about anything you want to throw at it and its a square motor :)

There is no replacement for displacement talk went out the window years ago.Not it's, the only replacement for displacement is boost :)

ra4e2y4a.jpg

:look:

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95riosnake Senior Member

95riosnake

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This thread isn't about modulars...it's about pushrod blocks and is in the pushrod section, please keep it on topic. This isn't going to turn into a pushrod vs. modular shit fest.

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PRPVinyl Senior Member

PRPVinyl

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I want to find a SN95 with a broke 302, then I can swap in a 351W and go drag racing. I still go by the old adage there is no replacement for displacement. You can boost a stroked 351W just as easy as a 302, and still make more power. With drop down motor mounts, you can use your stock hood. Yes a 351W is heavier, but dropping the weight a little lower won't be noticeable and may help in corners. Yeah you can make a 302 scream to 8K all day long, but you can make the same power out of a 351W at lower RPM's, that leads to better engine longevity.

Just my take on all of this and my opinion

Matt

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F8L GT Senior Member

F8L GT

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I want to find a SN95 with a broke 302, then I can swap in a 351W and go drag racing. I still go by the old adage there is no replacement for displacement. You can boost a stroked 351W just as easy as a 302, and still make more power. With drop down motor mounts, you can use your stock hood. Yes a 351W is heavier, but dropping the weight a little lower won't be noticeable and may help in corners. Yeah you can make a 302 scream to 8K all day long, but you can make the same power out of a 351W at lower RPM's, that leads to better engine longevity.

Just my take on all of this and my opinion

Matt

Hell with the Windsor, go Cleveland and rev that bitch to high hell

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330CubeGt Senior Member

330CubeGt

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This thread isn't about modulars...it's about pushrod blocks and is in the pushrod section, please keep it on topic. This isn't going to turn into a pushrod vs. modular shit fest.

My bad u thought this scotty guy started this thread trying to figure out what motor he should build. Just realized Brian started it and its not the type of thread I thought it was ftl...

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Psychorugby Senior Member

Psychorugby

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So on another thought, how easily can a 460 fit into an SN95? A blown 460 would be kick ass also

matt

That's what my painter is putting in his Fox...

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Schiffy Senior Member

Schiffy

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460s weigh so much though. A large 351w strikers from an aftermarket block can make some big cubes too.

On the other hand, a 460 BB would be kinda badass to see. They're out there, but not something you see everyday

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revhead347 Advanced Member

revhead347

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I have a 460 Foxbody in my shop right now. The body is so trashed I am trying to convince the owner to just part it out. You'd be amazed how well it fits in a Fox/SN Mustang. I think he could get away with a 2" cowl actually. I wouldn't count out the Cleveland either. After almost 40 years, they are actually starting to make good performance parts for it. You used to have to hunt high and low to find a set of 4V or 8V heads for it. Now you can buy aluminum heads. One of the magazines did a 400M based engine not long ago. It made like 560hp on pump gas. Not bad at all.

Kurt

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Schiffy Senior Member

Schiffy

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right.... so i guess only your experiences validate your bias. Everyone elses experiences dont matter. cool beans man. im out.

Don't get your panties in a bunch... That's the point of another thread. Your experiences, my experiences and everyone else's... But if you don't have anything useful to add, pack bags and kick rocks

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Brian Senior Member

Brian

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Jess, my car is a '95 Cobra which came from the factory with a pushrod engine. That's the reason I made the thread to find out more information on the blocks available but its turned into a 302 vs 351 debate which I figured might happen. But yeah that's why.

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