Lanter's rebuild of a '98 Cobra

[RideTech_Ryan]

Been trying to follow your build as much as i can from forums to facebook and it has been an awesome transformation with great attention to detail.  Congrats on a bad ass build!

[Lanter]

2 hours ago, RideTech_Ryan said:

Been trying to follow your build as much as i can from forums to facebook and it has been an awesome transformation with great attention to detail.  Congrats on a bad ass build!

 

Thanks man, I appreciate it.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Lanter

[Lanter]

The studs didn't fix the issue.  So after speaking with D&D they recommended pulling it again to adjust the pivot ball a little more.  Then drive it and get the car tuned regardless of the noise.  They said if it breaks in and the noise goes away that's great but if it's still there after the tune appointment that they would take the trans back and have it looked through to try and find the cause.  So this weekend comes trans pull number 5 lol.  I would have to say though that D&D is without a doubt the best customer service I have dealt with.  Joe is always willing to answer my questions and they said if this last adjustment doesn't fix the issue that they will take all of it back and find out what's wrong.  Sucks that I may have to tear the car apart just after getting it tuned but at least I know they will stand behind the stuff they sell.

[Prokiller]

that really really sucks man.  i can't believe how calm you seem.  granted reading after the fact isn't what you i'm sure you were saying at the time.  

 

should buy that trans jack now.  that way when you put this in it will be the last time because that's how it always works when you buy something like that.  i bought a generator 2 years ago and only used it for the first time last week for all of 30 min.

[Yeahloh95]

i hope this is the last tie it comes out and you get it figured out ,I have an rst I am putting in soon

[Lanter]

1 hour ago, Prokiller said:

that really really sucks man.  i can't believe how calm you seem.  granted reading after the fact isn't what you i'm sure you were saying at the time.  

 

should buy that trans jack now.  that way when you put this in it will be the last time because that's how it always works when you buy something like that.  i bought a generator 2 years ago and only used it for the first time last week for all of 30 min.

 

I am frustrated about the issues for sure but looking at it from the entire build perspective I consider myself lucky things have gone as smooth as they have.  I know building the datsun I had was a way bigger headache.  It fought me every chance it got lol.  I think you're right about the trans jack, I have bought more than a few tools that were specialty type deals that only got used once,  perhaps getting the trans jack will trick the car into behaving lol. 

 

1 hour ago, Yeahloh95 said:

i hope this is the last tie it comes out and you get it figured out ,I have an rst I am putting in soon

 

Thanks, I do too.  You will not be disappointed with the mcleod.  It is a really nice setup and not to bad to install.

[Blackmage]

ugh clutch issues are the worst.  car looks great btw

[Tabres]

We can commiserate together if you'd like.  I finally got around to trying to take my car on it's maiden voyage last week and it was a failure.  The transmission will slot into all gears smoothly when the car is off, the engine will start normally in neutral, but will not go into gear with the car running.  And if I have the transmission in gear, clutch to the floor and try to start the car the starter will drive the car forward if the transmission is in 1st for example.  I've adjusted the firewall adjuster every which way I can with no change.  It's frustrating, especially given that everything went back on exactly as it came off, short of maybe the cable routing.  I refuse to believe the cable stretched just laying on the floor in my basement for a few months so something else must be going on.  I haven't had time to mess with it in a week so I'm hoping to take a closer look at it soon.

 

Go halfsies with you on a transmission jack?  lol

Edited June 28, 2016 by Tabres

[Lanter]

5 hours ago, Blackmage said:

ugh clutch issues are the worst.  car looks great btw

 

It's somewhat looking like it's the trans and not the clutch, not that it's any less work to keep messing with it.  Thanks, hopefully after all the issues are ironed out it'll run better than it looks lol.

 

4 hours ago, Tabres said:

We can commiserate together if you'd like.  I finally got around to trying to take my car on it's maiden voyage last week and it was a failure.  The transmission will slot into all gears smoothly when the car is off, the engine will start normally in neutral, but will not go into gear with the car running.  And if I have the transmission in gear, clutch to the floor and try to start the car the starter will drive the car forward if the transmission is in 1st for example.  I've adjusted the firewall adjuster every which way I can with no change.  It's frustrating, especially given that everything went back on exactly as it came off, short of maybe the cable routing.  I refuse to believe the cable stretched just laying on the floor in my basement for a few months so something else must be going on.  I haven't had time to mess with it in a week so I'm hoping to take a closer look at it soon.

 

Go halfsies with you on a transmission jack?  lol

 

Nooooooooooo.....  I saw the video of yours starting and thought all was right with the world again.  Does the clutch fork move freely and with the clutch disengaged pull forward like it should?  Do you have an adjustable pivot ball that could have loosened up?  Man I hope it's something simple for you as the winter project has thrown you more than a fare share of speed bumps.

 

 

On to other frustrating bits, the trans/clutch/whatever the hell it is, is still making noise but seems to be getting quieter.  Though still fairly loud.  D&D says to just break it in and dyno the car then if it needs fixed still they will take care of it, so thats a welcome relief.  With exception of the drivetrain noise and a very small  oil leak I have been getting this strange noise, a fluttering air leak sort of noise, when driving.  It happens when I give the car about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle around 2000-2500 rpm.  It's loud enough to drive you nuts but I can't find it anywhere.  Now after 2500 rpm the turbo starts to spool and that's all you hear, so either the sound gets quieter or goes away completely.  Over the weekend I pressurized the exhaust and sprayed everything with windex to look for leaks.  The manifolds have small leaks around the gaskets but not much, every v band has zero leaks.  Haven't pressurized the intake side but have checked the t bolt clamps and they are all tight.  Has anyone every had a strange fluttering leak noise that they have fixed?  I am open to any and all suggestions at this point lol.  

Edited June 28, 2016 by Lanter

[Lanter]

Here is a video if anyone can get any idea what it could be from it. 

 

 

[Lanter]

Well some days you just want to light your car on fire and take a step back.  Yesterday was without a doubt one of those days and easily the worst day I've had while owning the car.  Yesterday was my long awaited dyno appointment where I would finally reach the light at the end of the tunnel and bask in the glory of 10 years of planning and almost 4 years of building the car...... wrong lol.  So got the car to Lee's and started it on the trailer to get it off and Lee says "Something's not right".  Talk about taking all the wind out of your sails.  He says sounds like low compression somewhere and asks how the cars been treated and more details.  I reiterate it's a fresh built motor with just enough miles to break in the clutch and trans.  He asks how it's been running which I tell him it idles on the rough side and is rough from idle to 2000 rpm but then smooths out and drives great, I assumed the roughness was the twin disk breaking in.  

 

So at this point we do a compression test and sure enough my brand new built motor is without compression on two of eight and really low on another.  Numbers break down like so:

4 = 150                  8 = 130

3 = 150                  7 = 30

2 = didn't test      6 = 0

1 = didn't test      5 = 0

 

5 and 6 are completely dead,  I know I know how could I not have known.  I don't have an answer for that honestly.  I really just thought the slight roughness was a combination of the start up tune and twin disk/trans being broken in.  Called the engine builder and he is as dumbfounded as I am saying the engine should shake so bad you couldn't drive with compression numbers like that.  I can't say I disagree with him other than I watched Lee do the test and I have driven the car like this and didn't even have the slightest clue something was that far off.

 

So at this point I have to blow the car completely back apart to get the engine to the builder to see if it was a mistake somewhere on their end, cam timing ect or a part defect, head gasket, idk.  Yesterday was a rough day but if I can get the engine out this weekend I can get it to him Monday and hopefully he can take a look at it while I am at mustang week.  I'm hoping it is something easily fixed so I may have some hope of salvaging this year and getting the car finished.  

Edited July 14, 2016 by Lanter

[Lanter]

Trying to stay positive though this will give me a chance to do a slight wire tuck in the engine bay.  I'm thinking of just slimming down the harness and routing it under the intake so it hides the majority of it.

[Prokiller]

wow man that really really sucks.  i think we've all been there.  just take your time pulling it out, don't want to get mad and break/scratch something.  

[Tabres]

Damn, Kevin... I'm sorry to hear that.  That really sucks.  The compression numbers almost make it look like the cams are 180* out.  If you're open to advice, if I were you, I'd pull the valve covers and spend a few minutes checking the cam timing before you took everything else too far apart.  If there is something wrong there it could save you a ton of time, and a few hundred dollars in gaskets.

 

 

Turbo cars must be cursed because you and I sure have been through some shit this year...

Edited July 14, 2016 by Tabres

[Lanter]

33 minutes ago, Prokiller said:

wow man that really really sucks.  i think we've all been there.  just take your time pulling it out, don't want to get mad and break/scratch something.  

 

For sure it's a tough pill to swallow after all the work but it happens.  Honestly I thought I would break something or not make the power I was hoping, didn't think it would not even get tuned lol.  I'll take that advice to heart since causing more damage by rushing would probably send me over the tipping point of just letting it sit and doing nothing.

 

15 minutes ago, Tabres said:

Damn, Kevin... I'm sorry to hear that.  That really sucks.  The compression numbers almost make it look like the cams are 180* out.  If you're open to advice, if I were you, I'd pull the valve covers and spend a few minutes checking the cam timing before you took everything else too far apart.  If there is something wrong there it could save you a ton of time, and a few hundred dollars in gaskets.

 

 

Turbo cars must be cursed because you and I sure have been through some shit this year...

 

That was the first thing that crossed my mind was it feels like one cam is completely out of phase so on all 4 strokes one set of valves is partially or fully open and letting all the charge flow out and not compressing.  Or I am hoping it is something like that and not a complete overhaul on a newly build engine.  I am open to any and all advice, I pulled the cover yesterday and watched to make sure all the valves moved freely and the cams spun, which they do.  I didn't spend the time to check timing of both cams, something I am not familiar with so will have to do my research.  The plan right now is to just check the basics, like valvetrain operation, timing, ect but other than that the engine will be sent to the builder complete.  I'm not tearing it apart at all so no to add any confusion on who did or could have caused what if a problem is found.  

 

Do you know any good articles on setting DOHC cams/timing?  The engine build is the one thing I didn't want to tackle so it's not something I have researched a ton.

 

 

This has been a trying year for a lot of us lol.  I guess when it rains it pours....

[Tabres]

2 hours ago, Lanter said:

 

The plan right now is to just check the basics, like valvetrain operation, timing, ect but other than that the engine will be sent to the builder complete.  I'm not tearing it apart at all so no to add any confusion on who did or could have caused what if a problem is found.  

 

Do you know any good articles on setting DOHC cams/timing?  The engine build is the one thing I didn't want to tackle so it's not something I have researched a ton.

 

Definitely understand that, a good approach to take in letting the builder diagnose it.  I have a bunch of the Ford service manual PDF's on setting the cam timing if you'd like them.  If you've got an e-mail address, I can send them this evening if you'd like.  Even if you don't venture into checking it yourself, they're a nice resource to have.

[Lanter]

11 minutes ago, Tabres said:

 

Definitely understand that, a good approach to take in letting the builder diagnose it.  I have a bunch of the Ford service manual PDF's on setting the cam timing if you'd like them.  If you've got an e-mail address, I can send them this evening if you'd like.  Even if you don't venture into checking it yourself, they're a nice resource to have.

 

Man that would be great. I'd love to read into the process even if I don't actually set the timing or degree the cams. I'm wondering if maybe the valves got bent when they were setting timing or degreeing them but once timing was set correct the valve have no chance of hitting the piston but the damage is already done so they are no longer seating. 

 

My email is kevin.lanter9@gmail.com. Thanks for sending those manuals over. They'll definitely come in handy. 

[Kyle5.0]

Sorry to hear about the issues man. I'm sure once it's up and running again it will be worth the pain. At least it still looks sexy with those exports and IRS 

[Tabres]

If you check your e-mail you should have those PDF's.  Let me know if they didn't make it to you!

[Lanter]

3 hours ago, Kyle5.0 said:

Sorry to hear about the issues man. I'm sure once it's up and running again it will be worth the pain. At least it still looks sexy with those exports and IRS 

 

Thanks for the compliments. It'll be worth it for sure but this is a speed bump I wasn't expecting to hit lol. 

 

2 hours ago, Tabres said:

If you check your e-mail you should have those PDF's.  Let me know if they didn't make it to you!

 

Got them. Thanks again they'll help a lot. 

[copmagnet]

I'm with the other guys, i bet your timing is off. Ford's instructions are messed up and have you install the cams on one bank 180° out. I can't even count how many times this gets messed up. I caught it when I assembled my motor, i even posted about it in my build thread. 

 

Also, I'm getting that same annoying fluttering your getting, but I found it, for me it was the Down pipe between the second and third section where I had used the slip on band. 

 

I'm sorry you have to go through this man, it really is shitty. 

 

You have stock cams right? Timing a modular is really easy.

[Lanter]

7 hours ago, copmagnet said:

I'm with the other guys, i bet your timing is off. Ford's instructions are messed up and have you install the cams on one bank 180° out. I can't even count how many times this gets messed up. I caught it when I assembled my motor, i even posted about it in my build thread. 

 

Also, I'm getting that same annoying fluttering your getting, but I found it, for me it was the Down pipe between the second and third section where I had used the slip on band. 

 

I'm sorry you have to go through this man, it really is shitty. 

 

You have stock cams right? Timing a modular is really easy.

 

Bryan sent me the instructions on setting timing on these engines so I'll read through those and pull the covers once the engine is out to see if everything is right or if hopefully I find the issue.  I just wish either all 4 on this bank were bad or only two.  If it were only two I would lean towards a bad head gasket but with three being dead and one low I am at a loss.  Hopefully the builder will figure it out quickly and help me out on it.  I really don't think it should be something I am liable for but that's not how racing parts ever work out so we will see.  

 

Hopefully the fluttering sound is something to do with this compressions issue.  Yes cams are stock.  

[copmagnet]

Would you mind forwarding those instructions to me at hunterrpratt@gmail.com? I'm curious  to see if they are the same as the printed out version included with the timing  kits.

[Tabres]

1 hour ago, copmagnet said:

Would you mind forwarding those instructions to me at hunterrpratt@gmail.com? I'm curious  to see if they are the same as the printed out version included with the timing  kits.

 

I forwarded them on to you!

 

1 hour ago, Lanter said:

 

I really don't think it should be something I am liable for but that's not how racing parts ever work out so we will see.  

 

Hopefully the guy is honest.  I can't see any reason you should have be responsible for parts or labor for fixing the issue if it is something the builder failed to do correctly.

[Lanter]

3 minutes ago, Tabres said:

 

Hopefully the guy is honest.  I can't see any reason you should have be responsible for parts or labor for fixing the issue if it is something the builder failed to do correctly.

 

He is most definitely an honest genuine guy so I have a good feeling he will help me out.  I can't think of anything I could have done that would cause the issues I am having since the car was literally just broken in awaiting getting it dyno tuned.  I really have to believe it was assembly error.  I'll keep you guys in the loop with how it plays out, if the engine needs rebuild on my dime though it'll be probably mid next year before I get the funds to do it all again.

 

Last night after work I was able to get the hood and bumper, exhaust, turbo kit, cooling system, and charge pipes out of the car.  Plan for tomorrow is trans, clutch, flywheel, fuel system in the engine bay and hopefully pull the engine from the top.  I'm wanting to leave the suspension in place to keep from having to re-align it, plus pulling from the top doesn't look to be too difficult.

[copmagnet]

I would remove the passenger side header before pulling the engine out of the top. I had alot of trouble getting mine down in the car with both manifold on, and the passenger side one kinda dragged in the engine bay and scratched my paint ? it's not visible with the motor in, but I know it's there. 

 

Once the engine is lifted about 3" up its really easy to get to all the nuts and the manifold slides right out! 

[Lanter]

1 minute ago, copmagnet said:

I would remove the passenger side header before pulling the engine out of the top. I had alot of trouble getting mine down in the car with both manifold on, and the passenger side one kinda dragged in the engine bay and scratched my paint ? it's not visible with the motor in, but I know it's there. 

 

Once the engine is lifted about 3" up its really easy to get to all the nuts and the manifold slides right out! 

 

I was planning to pull the headers off before lifting it out. I don't want to pull the head as I'd really rather let the builder do that so there isn't any question on whether I messed something up when I tore it down. 

 

Have you driven your car yet since it was tuned? 

[copmagnet]

The drivers side manifold is fine, and honestly you don't  want to go through the trouble of trying to pull it off. It took me three hours to get two nuts off. It is tucked in enough that nothing gets close to it, but the passenger side stocks out pretty far and hangs up. 

 

I haven't driven it since it has been done. I pick it up tomorrow morning. I did drive it from the shop I orked on it back to the tuner though. It was partially tuned so I was able to enjoy it without beating on it.

[Lanter]

And it's out. 

 

 

fingers crossed its an easy fix and I can get all this crap back in the car and tuned before summers over. Would hate to have to wait until next year. I'm dropping it off at the builder Monday then heading to mustang week Tuesday. Be a little sad walking around knowing my car should have been there lol. 

[copmagnet]

Don't sweat it bro.

[Lanter]

Engine's back from the builder.  Now just need time to put the thing back together.  I was super bummed to have to tear the car apart and this whole mess but now realize that the car god's were looking out for me and I may be the luckiest car guy in the world.  Let me elaborate (and sit back this will be a long read)...  Builder performs leakdown test to isolate what cylinders are the issue, agreeing with what my compression test results were.  He then digs further to find that all the stainless steel race valves are just slightly longer than the high side spec Ford calls for.  Turns out that they are so close to being ok that only a couple valves had issues only because they were paired with lifters that when bled down were on the high side of factory spec, the tolerance stack up caused the valves to hang open.  My builder apologized and said it was something they should have checked but everything having such tight tolerances they simply missed it.  So they disassembled all the valves and cut them down to the middle of spec when paired with the lifter,follower they will be paired with.  They then did a leak test and every cylinder is around 3-4% so golden!.  

 

Now onto the "luckiest guy" bit of this story.  So when they found the issue and called me to tell me about it they said they found paper towel in the oil pan and a small piece stuck to the oil pickup tube.........  He said that we just seriously lucked out that this engine had a problem because it's very likely the blockage could have got worse and led to serious damage.  Now I racked my brain trying to figure out how this could have got in there and the only thing that I can think of was when I swapped oil pans to the one with the AN fitting welded on.  When I got the pan I took paper towel and cleaner to make sure it was spotless.  In doing this I must have caught a corner and ripped off a piece that then stayed in the pan when I put in on the car.  

 

So by some miracle the tolerance stackup on a couple valves caused my engine to not have compression resulting in a very dissapointed me, followed by tearing the car back apart to take the engine back to the builder.  All this to find out that because of all this trouble I likely averted catastrophe.  They also took the engine down further, like removing the oil pickup, pump, ect to ensure all was ok.  He told me the engine looks great just like a 500 mile engine should and that nothing was damaged and now we know for sure the thing is sealing as it should.  Also couldn't be happier with how he treated the whole situation.  As with most performance stuff no warranties were offered or included when I picked up the engine 2 years ago but he stood behind his work and even refused to charge me for any of it.  I eventually talked him into letting me at least pay for the parts considering the extra work he put in to chase down my mistake.  All in all I couldn't be happier and am back to being excited about the car! 

 

So now I just need to get it back in and drive it until my Sep 26 tune appointment with Lee.  Sorry for the long read but I'd only feel right telling the entire story and how something I did almost cost me an engine but was saved by a simple oversight by my builder.  Next update should have more pictures and a lot less words lol.. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Lanter

[Prokiller]

that is awesome.  those are the guys that you want to work with.  that's the attitude you want from a builder.  its incredible that that was the problem.

[Lanter]

9 minutes ago, Prokiller said:

that is awesome.  those are the guys that you want to work with.  that's the attitude you want from a builder.  its incredible that that was the problem.

 

Couldn't agree more, no doubt in my mind that the next time I need engine work on this or any other car Williams will be my first call.  

[Sho Amo]

You should shout that guy out. Sounds like someone lots of us wouldnt mind doing business with.

[Lanter]

On August 5, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Sho Amo said:

You should shout that guy out. Sounds like someone lots of us wouldnt mind doing business with.

 

The shops name is Williams Performance Engines out of St. Paul Indiana. Owners the definition of a stand up guy. He's not a big operation but specializes in race engines and keeps pretty much everything in house. 

 

Today my brother came down to help me get the engine back in. Now I need to de-loom the engine harness to recover and reroute it, then it's getting all the parts back in. Hopefully be driving in the next week depending on how much time I can get to work on the car. 

[Tabres]

Glad to hear it worked out so well for you, and even though it was a crappy situation you can leave feeling pretty damn good about it.  It's really nice to hear how the builder took care of you!  Absolutely can't wait to see your car done!

[Kyle5.0]

It's awesome that he stood by his work and didn't make a fuss. It's hard to find that in businesses nowadays. Can't wait to see this thing together again and tearing up the streets

[Lanter]

23 hours ago, Tabres said:

Glad to hear it worked out so well for you, and even though it was a crappy situation you can leave feeling pretty damn good about it.  It's really nice to hear how the builder took care of you!  Absolutely can't wait to see your car done!

 

Thanks Bryan this whole situation has gone way better than I was expecting.  Have you had yours re-tuned yet?

 

11 hours ago, Kyle5.0 said:

It's awesome that he stood by his work and didn't make a fuss. It's hard to find that in businesses nowadays. Can't wait to see this thing together again and tearing up the streets

 

Without a doubt it's becoming a rare trait in companies these days.  This was the best customer service I have ever had, and not just the taking care of me with this engine.  Over the last 3 years he has always picked up the phone or returned my calls and answered any and all questions without pushing me to just make a decision.  I can't wait either.  I think having it all done, or at least I thought it was, before the engine trouble has made things worse.  I really need to get motivated to get it back together.

[Det_Riot]

Damn man, just catching up on your build from a while ago and what a battle of ups and downs. I'm glad nothing catastrophic was wrong with the engine, crazy how such a minute tolerance can alter the performance of an engine that much! Can't wait to see her lay down some real numbers soon!

[Tabres]

2 hours ago, Lanter said:

 

Thanks Bryan this whole situation has gone way better than I was expecting.  Have you had yours re-tuned yet?

 

Nope, I decided to wait until the fall, maybe mid to late September.  Cooler weather and all, you know?  The old tune is still close enough I can lightly goof off around town.