smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 brian, is there any reason youre going with kenny brown over a stifflers FIT system? Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 brian, is there any reason youre going with kenny brown over a stifflers FIT system? Just curiousJust a preference. Not saying anything is wrong with the Stifflers FIT system but Kenny Brown is a well known and proven (track proven) company and I've been talking with them on a regular basis here recently. I've heard of Stifflers before and know people with some of their products though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I'll ask Kenny Brown why theirs is better than that FIT system and see what their response is.This is what I got back when I asked about their system compared to MM's full length SFCs:"The MM units are designed as full length because they support the full free-span between the sub-frame rails requiring larger tubing, AND they use it to support load from the torque arm rear suspension. Kenny's double-cross subframe connector design cuts the free-span between the rails in half by also connecting to the seat mounts. The benefit is the captured length vs. the free-span is smaller so you don't need to weld the full length of the frame rail, it provides additional support to the seat mounting points on the mid-pan which is a known problem area for aging cars, and it requires much less material for support so lighter tubing and less tubing for less weight. Not sure if that makes sense... Kenny's Matrix Brace and Jacking rails make a huge difference and since we basically create a bunch of triangles under the car it creates rigid frame-like structure with minimal addition in weight due to how it captures load. The jacking rails are like the greatest thing ever, they totally save the rocker area from warping or destructing when you jack the car up...Most of that super heavy-duty, full-length, tubing everywhere stuff is just overkill and adds too much weight. In the case of the torque arm rear suspension many of the road racers use, it's really heavy, sends a ton of load into the front part of the chassis, and requires a lot of support hence the large tubing and bracing. Kenny never really did that, most of our race cars used the common 4-link with a panhard bar, or the IRS after 1999 which is so much better than a live-axle suspension. I think everyone out there has pretty much copied Kenny's original designs for the matrix components in one way or another..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 ive got it on mine, and my best friend on his 03 cobra.....very nice. Either way good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Can you post pictures of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 sure give me a min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Damn, that is a good looking setup. I'm eager to hear what Kenny Brown says. I'm also going to email Stifflers and get their opinion. Should be interesting to hear both sides. Nice x-member brace too! I wanted to pick one up a while ago. Maybe you've got me going a different direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 hes got quite a few things in the pipeline for foxes and SN's, the soonest one is a rear shock brace that uses factory holes and won't stress the trunk/floor pan like a certain others company's ive heard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I assume since you have a few of their parts and you have that in that you've kept in contact with them. When you went to purchase their products did you compare them to any others like the KB kit I was thinking about getting by chance? What made you go with their company over others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 well if you get a hold of stifflers, You will more than likely talk to brian figg. Super cool dude, real down to earth. He used to design suspension systems for INDY or CART or Formula 1 (i cant remember) and then for a major shock company, so he's got experience. I cant say much about Kenny Browns stuff as ive never used it. And i love the tranny crossmember too, mine is a prototype, but its available now. When my friend and i actually got our FIT systems we went to Indy and had Stifflers install it. Brian cut us a deal, I got a Prototype x-member, and we all got to B.S. for awhile. good times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Do you have closer up shots of the x-member braces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 i actually planned on getting Kenny's system for years, until he closed up shop because of health problems. Then one of my good friends had the fit system installed on his black 01 bullitt, so i had someones opinion that i trusted. I called brian at stifflers and the rest is history. I mean ive heard things about other companies, and i really dont want to stand here any bash anyone considering ive never used their products. I will say that to my knowledge, the fit system is more adaptive than other companies, and that stifflers web and jacking rails can be added to any full length SFC. One more thing i have noticed is that a large difference can be felt between my car (FIT system) and alyssas (MM full length SFC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 heres a link to the trans x-memberhttp://buystifflers.com/1994-1998MustangTransmissionCrossmemberForAODE4R70WT-5TKOsandTR-3550.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yeah, that's the one that SniveTroll told me to get. I might go with the FIT kit and the x-member brace from them after seeing your picture and looking at the FIT vs the KB side by side. The kit looks a lot more heavy duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 thats what i thought, and it only adds about 40 lbs IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I've been staring at this thread & the picture you posted. That thing looks extremely well built, incredibly designed, and very heavy duty. Thank you for reminding me of these parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 The only question I have about this design is why did they not use standard basic triangulation. Triangulation is the simplest and strongest force distributing design. have you ever noticed on the really large cranes how small the steel in the boom is and it is held together with smaller steel that is triangulated? There w=may very well be a good reason for their design, but it seems it could have been built lighter and just as strong if not stronger if they would have went with triangulation. If you call these guys Brian ask them what the logic behind the design is.matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Thanks Matt for some good feedback. I'll make sure to ask. I'll probably be e-mailling them so anything anyone wants to ask let me know and I'll throw it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iRoush Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 ^exactly.... not nearly as strong as they can be. The absolute BEST subframe connectors I have seen other than through the floor weld ins, have got to be the Hans Racecraft. good luck finding them though because last I heard they are no longer for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 :waits for Matt to design his own:hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Order the set like Shiffy had on his last car and F8LGT has on his car now. Order the round DOM round stock and some 2x2 box tubing from Summit, or procure it locally. We can make a simple set of triangulated SFC like pictured above. They will be lighter than the FIT SFC's but just as strong.The steel can be procured locally but it is usually a $75 minimum purchase from the local steel yards.matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Order the set like Shiffy had on his last car and F8LGT has on his car now. Order the round DOM round stock and some 2x2 box tubing from Summit, or procure it locally. We can make a simple set of triangulated SFC like pictured above. They will be lighter than the FIT SFC's but just as strong.The steel can be procured locally but it is usually a $75 minimum purchase from the local steel yards.mattDefinately... With the ones I had and F8LGT has now, is a perfect base. Weld them in, then build off that to form the triangulated pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Here are the links from Summit.http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all22128-8/overview/http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all22183-4/overview/http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all22175-8/overview/Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 To order the steel from summit, 1.5" square for the outside bar, and 3/4" round for the triangulation(2-8ft sections of each) would be about $110 shipped. You can get the steel locally for less, but like zi said there is usually a $75 minimum, If you and Schiffy went in together we could do 2 sets probably for the cost of what one set would be ordering from Summitmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Hmmm... would there be any way to know if it'll be stronger or more effective than one the FIT system? Just not trying to spend the money twice or have anyone do extra work. I don't have a problem if money is the biggest concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 I don't want it. I want a plain straight piece. I'm trying to go straight as fast as possibly can. I don't want any stiffer or heavier than I'll get for $104.99. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 All I know is that simple triangulation is the strongest design there is. Look at a dragster frame rails, they are 4 long tubes that are connected through smaller tubing using triangulation. As I said earlier, look at the boom,s on really large cranes, same thing 4 large tubes connected with smaller tubes using triangulation. Same deal with steel building roof trusses, a large T beam connected to another smaller supporting T beam connected with standard triangulation. Which would be stronger, i have no way of testing. Like I said, FIT must of had a reason for using the deign they did for a reason, but it looks heavy, smaller tubing with standard triangulation seems like it would be stronger.Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Look at the ones iRoush posted, the triangulation tubing looks to be smaller diameter then the Fit, so it is lighter. But I believe it is just as strong if not stronger than the FIT product. I have no skin in the game for either company, just posting my honest opinion. There does come a point where it becomes overkill and adding more steel adds nothing more to the equation.matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 I would agree with that last part. It makes perfect sense. I have no problem with us building one but I just want to find out why they went with that design like you suggested first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Calm down Matt. Nobody is saying you're wrong about the triangulation. lol... Yes, it is a proven engineering fact that triangulation is stronger, because it evenly distributes load to the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 I am calm, yep still barley have a pulse. just trying to explain my theory. you see when he talks to fit the will have a good sounding story, and if Brian does not know the facts he may be easily swayed. He can find the facts that i am talking about through a simple internet search now that he knows where I am coming from.matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallblocksn95 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Everyone keeps bringing up weight, Kenny browns matrix system weighs 46lbs. Stifflers FIT system is 40lbs. If people are so concerned about less than 50lbs - go on a diet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Not everyone but what Matt is saying is that we could potentially build a lighter stronger setup than the FIT system. He wasn't comparing the KB to the FIT. Just saying.And weight is a HUGE factor in many different types of racing, which I'm sure you know, so yes losing body weight will help but so will saving weight on the SFCs. Again, just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 I personally do not see the need for the out riggers on the SFC's. For any serious classes of racing you will be installing a cage and that will give the car more structural integrity then the out riggers will ever give a carmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Starting this to move the previous debates in another thread into one spot and not derail that other thread anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slykin Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Thru-floor subframe connectors FTW.On another note, i'll be the devil's advocate a bit.http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1324327-maximum-motorsport-full-lenth-sfc-vs-stifflers-fit-system-questions.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Daddy Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Unless they are through the floor I wouldn't waste my time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnyxCobra Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 it looks like the KB and FIT system uses the same basic SFC as a base. If the FIT proves better than the KB Matrix do you think I could add the rest of the fit system to my standard KB SFC? They look pretty much identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...