Brian Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 So after talking to Brett he's got me thinking about building a NA 5.0 striker with e85. I know ill need to run high compression but aside from that I know little.I was looking at FordStrokers website trying to see the options but don't understand the piston dishes and all that. Teach me everything I need to know about NA motors basically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95riosnake Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 First thing to consider is E85 readily available to you where you live? There's only a couple stations around here that carry it, so it's not an option for me as they are both about a 35 min drive away. My friend has a 700+ rwhp Whipple terminator built for E85, but he lives about 1/4 mile from one of the stations so it works for him, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 All the navy bases have E85 here, so yes it is readily available. Brian I'm not supposed to have y phone right now, but text me later and we can talk 5.0. This is one area I'm well versed in. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 All the navy bases have E85 here, so yes it is readily available. Brian I'm not supposed to have y phone right now, but text me later and we can talk 5.0. This is one area I'm well versed in. lolDon't hog your knowledge! Share it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SniveTroll Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Pffft schiffy dont know shit about shit...Carry on lolSent by smoke signals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Pffft schiffy dont know shit about shit...Carry on lolSent by smoke signalsSlap yourself... All I was gonna tell Brian was I've got a '72 ford 302 block and know a guy with forged rods and pistons for $100 that are for a 302 block bored .030 over which with a stock crank would be a 306. There a set of AFR heads for sell locally for $1300 ready to go. I have accessory brackets and timing covers. Just need pulleys, timing gears and chain and an intake. A little 306 on those older early 70's block will hold up to 500 fwhp. With the pistons and what not being forged you can slap a blower on it with 8-10 psi and the stock crank will be ok. Budget 5.0 builds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Haha but that wouldn't be an NA high compression e85 setup Chris! HaHa. I am trying to learn about NA. Dan yeah e85 isn't too far away from me. There's a few stations and especially on base which there are like 50 bases in this area. Our entire economy is the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Haha but that wouldn't be an NA high compression e85 setup Chris! HaHa. I am trying to learn about NA. Dan yeah e85 isn't too far away from me. There's a few stations and especially on base which there are like 50 bases in this area. Our entire economy is the military.Dude, we subtract the blower, throw on some pistons to bump compression and make sure the cam can and will be effective and have enough PTV and you're good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Haha I know silly. I'm just saying I wanna learn about more about NA specific setups. We can talk about possible local parts via text so we don't clutter this thread. Someone else who doesn't know about them might learn a thing or two also. Try to ask questions that others would so if they come on here and search there's content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Gotcha... I replied to your text this am. I was asleep early cause I had to be up early. As for pushrod builds... Stock crank and rods with a .030 bore is the equivalent to a 306, change the stroke and you can jump to 331 or 347 or in some cases with aftermarket blocks, you could go as big as 393(also obtainable from a 351w) people have said that the 347 is less street able, because the angle of the throw puts a lot of thrust into the side of the cylinder wall, so people tend to stay away from them and build 331's. I however have seen 347's run for over 100,000 miles, so it's all hearsay. We can get into cylinder head and piston type if you want, to clear up any questions regarding compression. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 As far as block longevity, what becomes the major influences? Tune I've always been told plays a large roll. But does rpm you're running it up to play a larger roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 As far as block longevity, what becomes the major influences? Tune I've always been told plays a large roll. But does rpm you're running it up to play a larger roll?Most pushrods cars don't have that high revving power like the modulars. Because the springs just won't keep up as you'll start floating valves then BOOM. Piston, meet valve. The modular tends to make up for that downfall, because it has followers not lifters and springs and pushrods. Thought high HP pushrods engines can rev high, but it costs a pretty penny... Most failure I've seen is from crank walk and the block splitting. but a lot of people remedy that with a girdle. only stock crank I've ever seen break in half, Is my best friends Grand national. Haha... So unless you're running a shit ton of boost or spray, your stock crank will probably be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 One of the first questions you need to ask yourself is what are you building the motor for. A top end max horse power N/A motor will be set up differently than a max torque stump pulling motor.For max top end HP you will need your heads to flow more and give up some low end power.For max torque you will need your heads to have smaller intake runners so that you will have more velocity. Intake runner velocity is directly proportional to torque. How ever if you go too small on the intake runners then you are hindering the engineEngine operating RPM will also differ depending on application. Larger intake runners allow the engine to rev higher with out with out falling off, and conversely the smaller intake runners lower the point at which the motor falls on its face.Will the car still be computer controlled? This will effect your maximum compression ratio. Newer computer controlled vehicles can run a higher CR with out experiencing fatal Pre-Ignition Detonation. CR is determined by Head combustion chamber size, Head gasket compressed thickness, and the amount of dish/dome on the piston. A domed piston will have a higher CR than dished piston. When you look at the website for Eagle or Scat and you are shopping for a stroker kit their site will tell you what the expected CR will be for the different combustion chamber sizes..If I think of anything else about N/A engines I will post it herematt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 For dome pistons is that where you have to fly cut them and what exactly is fly cutting and its purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 I have never heard the term fly cutting. Think of a dished piston like this, when you look at the top of the piston think of it as looking at a dinner plate, it is higher on the edge than in the middle, the middle slopes downward like a dinner plate (dish)Now think of a domed piston like cutting a tennis ball in half and setting the cut edge on the table, it forma a dome. Usually a domed piston will have valve reliefs cut into the top so that the piston to valve clearance is adequate.The domed piston will give you higher CR because it creates a smaller area for the air-fuel mixture to congregate prior to spark igniting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iRoush Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 For dome pistons is that where you have to fly cut them and what exactly is fly cutting and its purpose.it's basically just notching the pistons so they do not collide with the valves.As for the most important part in a high revving + smooth n/a build. Think rotary engine. Lightweight and fully dynamically balanced from crank pulley to clutch. I had my entire rotating assembly balanced and chose the lightest rotating assembly parts I could find. Freed up horsepower and makes the engine spin a LOT quicker than my oem engine. So much I had to get serious tuning adjustments to keep the engine from stalling out it wanted to come down in revs so quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 After doing some quick research it seems the term fly cutting refers to cutting valve reliefs into a piston. Sometimes if you change the heads on a car and go to a different head design or a smaller combustion chamber, and you want to use your original pistons then you need to cut the valve reliefs into the pistons.If you are going to build a motor from scratch then order the proper pistons to match the stroke of the crank and the heads you want to run.matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64bit_Tuning Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If I could start over again with all of the money that I have into my Cobra... I would NOT build another N/A engine. The most power you are going to make on a reliable street N/A build is MAYBE 350whp. The car will be an absolute PIG on gas, and you wont be happy with it.My 347 was run right on the ragged edge for WAY too long. It is true that the shear torque was fun... I could drop the hammer and bake the tires in third. So yea, great... I have a loud car that gets 14mpg, spins it tires at anything over 1/2 throttle... and is generally a pain in the ass to maintain.Build a nice reliable 302-306, toss some forged pistons into it with ~9:1 CR and add some boost. You will enjoy the mileage when you are just putzing around. Boost cars like low gears, so itll be a great cruiser. And when you are ready to put your foot down, the power will roll in nicely. You remember how your STi felt. Why would you want a car that is a pain to drive, when you could have a properly proportioned boosted car that is a dream to drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Mostly because the car will be on the road course too not just driving around town. NA is very reliable even if boost is too. The STi you had to watch how you put your foot on the throttle. It was crazy aggressive and setup for highway pulls which I'm not planning on doing that. No street racing and no drag racing. Road course racing is the only thing aside from cruising the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kucklehead Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Don't forget about the best strikers stock bore just longer rod such as the 327 with that setup you still have a good stroker but if something where to ever happen its stock bore so its not bored over and you would have more room to fix what messed up. I'm not big on boring motors it makes the wall thinner and in a stock block can lead to a busted wall or over heating Warning : TO MUCH AWESOME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Don't forget about the best strikers stock bore just longer rod such as the 327 with that setup you still have a good stroker but if something where to ever happen its stock bore so its not bored over and you would have more room to fix what messed up. I'm not big on boring motors it makes the wall thinner and in a stock block can lead to a busted wall or over heating Warning : TO MUCH AWESOMEUnless you can come across an older '69-'72 block. They're thick as shit. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Just buy a World Castings Block. Bore them babies all day long and still have a block stronger than stockmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Just buy a World Castings Block. Bore them babies all day long and still have a block stronger than stockmattIf you have the money to spend. This is definitely the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottydsntknow Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Unless you have plans to go over 700whp, any 351 block is fine and the f4-f6 roller blocks are the easiest. Honestly they are pretty much a bolt in with very few swap parts needed and all easily available. Staying NA... definitely not going to hit that mark with anything coming close to being remotely streetable. Do a 351 roller based 408 build, make 500-550whp on a motor with great street manners and call it a day. Not going to be that much more than a 302 based stroker and you'll get WAY more return on your dollar. If you need a builder talk to Woody at www.fordstrokers.com /thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slykin Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Personally i'd never run an E85 setup, but I like to travel.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Personally i'd never run an E85 setup, but I like to travel....Do you not have a lot of e85 pumps by you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64bit_Tuning Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Do you not have a lot of e85 pumps by you?There are ZERO E85 pumps in Rhode Island... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 There are ZERO E85 pumps in Rhode Island...Thats nuts. I thought everywherr had at least some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottydsntknow Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 We have 0 in NJ too. E85 is a giant scam anyway though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iRoush Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 scam because you're paying more for fossil fuel when I'm technically running 105 octane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottydsntknow Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Scam because it costs more fossil fuel to make than it results in, costs more money overall and the only reason it is cheaper at the pump is because it is subsidized by the gov't. Basically lighting taxpayer money on fire... and its not the only thing either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangmanjeff Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 love n/a builds! That's why even after my low numbers and problems, Im staying true to my n.a build and cant wait to finish my 306 h/c/i and get it back to running strong. 350rwhp n/a 306 is a fun motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 love n/a builds! That's why even after my low numbers and problems, Im staying true to my n.a build and cant wait to finish my 306 h/c/i and get it back to running strong. 350rwhp n/a 306 is a fun motor How high of compression are you gonna be running? (Haven't looked at your build thread yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangmanjeff Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 How high of compression are you gonna be running? (Haven't looked at your build thread yet)yeah we spoke over on sn95 forums, I posted a link on here to the thread, before my motor was shot last time on the dyno only put down 300rwhp with long tubes so I knew my motor was shot sure enough cylinder 1 and 2 were bad , But I was running 10 to 1 compression my 306 with ported trickflow heads and a comp cam xe 274 hr cam, it put down 360rwhp n/a on 1 tune and 330rwhp on another less aggressive tune. so now im in process of finising my build, gonna be the same, sent the heads out for valve job and new pistons and rings. hope to be around same power 350rwhp is what my setup is for . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolocut Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 How high of compression are you gonna be running? (Haven't looked at your build thread yet)It's expensive to stay n/a if you want big power lol. On going project, 94 cobra, r block, tfsr225, hp efi, vortech ysInstagram [MENTION=584]Rolocut[/MENTION]Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 There are no E85 pumps around me either.I read a forum where Woody said to stay away from the new World Products Blocks and go for a Dart casting. Said there quality had gone south. I don't know the specifics, just passing it on.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolocut Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 World product blocks have the longest cylinder barrels followed by the old school r block then the dart then the new boss blocks. For a long life with a long stroke motor 3.4 or more stay away from fords newer boss blocks.On going project, 94 cobra, r block, tfsr225, hp efi, vortech ysInstagram [MENTION=584]Rolocut[/MENTION]Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997cobra Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 On the subject of fly cuttingthat is a fly cutter. Its just a sharpened tool bit mounted in a holder so that you can spin it and cut metal. The only reason it is called "fly cutting" is because of that tool. So dont let that term confuse you, it is the same as milling. The only reason i can see them using a fly cutter instead of a regular end mill is because the diameter of the tool is 100% adjustable. This would allow you to hold whatever clearance around the valve you need, without a cnc mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 There's a couple of gas stations around me that sell 105 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 World product blocks have the longest cylinder barrels followed by the old school r block then the dart then the new boss blocks. For a long life with a long stroke motor 3.4 or more stay away from fords newer boss blocks.On going project, 94 cobra, r block, tfsr225, hp efi, vortech ysInstagram @RolocutSent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah, I read all that scandal. You need a special piston to run more than 3.4" of stroke in a Boss block. I have a friend from college who is an engineer for Mahle now. He explained it all to me.As for the other thing, I'm just repeating what I heard. Something about problems with quality control, not so much the bore length.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
