Converting to E85

[itsblown93]

I'm not sure where this goes so I'm putting this here. I converting to E85 but not sure what else I'll need. So far I have 42lbs injectors, and a 255lph pump. What MAF should I go with? Also will the 255 pump feed enough fuel by itself or should I go with a 340lph or a boost-a-pump? My combo already put down 310/316 with messed up 30lbs injectors. Any advice would be helpful!

[iRoush]

Expect a 20-30% more requirement for fuel. With e85, you'll want to run a TR6 plug, after a lot of testing I've found these are the best direct replacement. Gapping depends on compression. I'm gapped at .024 to avoid spark blow out.

And just for reference, I'm at 70-75% FPDC (Fuel Pump Duty Cycle) with a 340LPH pump. Your 255LPH pump flows about 25% less than the 340LPH pump, so I'd think you'd be right at the limit of the pump IMO. I would upgrade to be safe honestly.

[itsblown93]

Ok thanks man. Also what are the benefits of running E85? I know you can run more timing, its suppose to idel smoother and run cooler. Any thing else E85 is good for? If you cant tell I've never messed with it.

[iRoush]

Ok thanks man. Also what are the benefits of running E85? I know you can run more timing, its suppose to idel smoother and run cooler. Any thing else E85 is good for? If you cant tell I've never messed with it.

The amazing smell, less emissions/burns cleaner.

When I change my oil, the oil color is the same as when I put it in now even after many miles, it's actually pretty nifty how well it burns. Also, I don't know how soon you're looking to upgrade but, I just bought a sumped cobra tank with hat, so I'll be dumping the KMS 340lph pump soon. let me know if you want it.

[Guest mustang_gtchick]

correct me if im wrong, but from what you posted above really you getting more out of the fuel and in a way its not a wasted and junking up your motor right?

[iRoush]

correct me if im wrong, but from what you posted above really you getting more out of the fuel and in a way its not a wasted and junking up your motor right?

it's actually wasting more fuel. BUT, the properties of the fuel being burned produce less emissions as well as less carbon build up on the pistons that plagues most fossil fuel engines.

[itsblown93]

ok cool. I'm hoping to make atleast 20-25 more hp if I'm lucky.

[Guest mustang_gtchick]

it's actually wasting more fuel. BUT, the properties of the fuel being burned produce less emissions as well as less carbon build up on the pistons that plagues most fossil fuel engines.

yeah thats what ive read, that you use more. but its still pretty cool

[Silverv6]

So Brett do you get better milage or not? I thought E85 was suppose to help with milage?

[SVTurbo 98]

So Brett do you get better milage or not? I thought E85 was suppose to help with milage?

I get about 3mpg less with e85

[Number Tew]

No, e85 makes your mileage worse, but its like 110 octane so you can bump compression/timing.

[Number Tew]

I wasn't arguing against it lol. If I could get it close I'd be all over it.

[SVTurbo 98]

No, e85 makes your mileage worse, but its like 110 octane so you can bump compression/timing.

Exactly.

I don't know if you have ever looked at a set of spark plugs after running a tank of race gas but it burns like shit unless you're making wot pulls. E85 burns cleaner than regular gasoline and has the benefits of race gas plus it burns cooler. I love putting around town with a full tank of e85 with a high boost tune and knowing I'm not wasting money (race gas) if I don't make any wot pulls. It also makes my turbo spool up quicker for whatever reason. It really is the shit.

[revhead347]

Keep in mind that E85 doesn't lubricate anywhere near as well as gasoline, so expect your fuel components to wear out a lot faster. It's not an issue in a race car, or a car not driven very often. But for your daily, the cost of replacing parts is going to stack up.

Kurt

[SVTurbo 98]

Keep in mind that E85 doesn't lubricate anywhere near as well as gasoline, so expect your fuel components to wear out a lot faster. It's not an issue in a race car, or a car not driven very often. But for your daily, the cost of replacing parts is going to stack up.

Kurt

That's why it still has gasoline mixed in with it. I wouldn't expect issues even in a daily driver.

[revhead347]

That's why it still has gasoline mixed in with it. I wouldn't expect issues even in a daily driver.

They all have gasoline mixed in now. Almost all the pumps are running 10% ethanol on regular gasoline. 15% gasoline just isn't enough lubrication.

Kurt

[SVTurbo 98]

They all have gasoline mixed in now. Almost all the pumps are running 10% ethanol on regular gasoline. 15% gasoline just isn't enough lubrication.

Kurt

lol ok...

[Number Tew]

Let iRoush come in. He dailys his roush with 350 horse and running on e85.

[Guest mustang_gtchick]

He daily drives it??? Wow e85 is hard to find around here.

[330CubeGt]

You can also run more timing with boosted apps to make a bit more power and E85 if im not mistaken it is ALOT cheaper then race fuel (C16) or similar gas thats roughly $75 for a 5 gallon drum.

I would try the 340 Pump for sure but worst case you need more pump a A1000 is $319 from most places and you can do a sumped setup.

[Guest mustang_gtchick]

Yes sir^^

[iRoush]

So Brett do you get better milage or not? I thought E85 was suppose to help with milage?

In order for me to have maintained the same fuel consumption I would have needed a 16:1 CR. I'm at a static 13.7:1 and dynamic is even lower due to the massive cams. Regardless, the higher the compression, the less e85 is needed to create combustion in the cylinder. On a cool random note, ive pulled two coil wires off while idling and the car doesnt miss, it produces enough heat that it can create combustion without needing spark at idle, much like a diesel. Currently I'm seeing about 17mpg putting around town without getting on it and 23mpg on the freeway. that being said if I get on it, it sucks fuel down harder than a pornstar sucks, period lol. I think the first fill up after I got it dyno'd was about 95 miles and I was on empty haha.

[itsblown93]

I will eventually have to do a sumped setup. E85 is everywhere around here and most car guys are actually running it here

[iRoush]

Keep in mind that E85 doesn't lubricate anywhere near as well as gasoline, so expect your fuel components to wear out a lot faster. It's not an issue in a race car, or a car not driven very often. But for your daily, the cost of replacing parts is going to stack up.

Kurt

what exactly needs lubrication in the fuel system? the only thing with moving parts on the fuel system is the pump and injectors, both of which can handle e85 no problem.

in fact, e85 needs to be driven more often to keep it from going bad. It doesn't not last nearly as long as gasoline. I'm just not sure where you're hearing e85 wears things out, I've seen numerous cars run for 10's of thousands of miles no problem. www.e85mustangs.com

[iRoush]

He daily drives it??? Wow e85 is hard to find around here.

yuuuup. we have 3 stations in my area. I filled up yesterday and paid 3.17/gal

[330CubeGt]

We have two E85 pumps here in Central FL and both of them are roughly 35 Mins away from my home Or i to would have made the change already.

[330CubeGt]

yuuuup. we have 3 stations in my area. I filled up yesterday and paid 3.17/gal

Just as cheap as 87oct around here ($3.15) . Im paying $3.50ish for 93 to go 240miles

[Number Tew]

Yea, it's much cheaper than gasoline. Though, I thought it was a bit more corrosive to the fuel lines, but only if a vehicle sits for excess periods of time.

But gasoline with ethanol in it does the same thing. Only way around it is getting gas from a marina.

And those fuel numbers really aren't bad. You still on 3.27 gears?

[SVTurbo 98]

We don't have any e85 stations other than what's on base which are only for military vehicles. I have to drive 100 miles and fill up 55 gal drums that I store in the garage. I just fill up whenever I leave the house. It's not as convenient as filling up at the pump but the benefits of e85 are worth the hassle, imo. I also test it so I know exactly what I'm putting in the tank.

[iRoush]

Yea, it's much cheaper than gasoline. Though, I thought it was a bit more corrosive to the fuel lines, but only if a vehicle sits for excess periods of time.

But gasoline with ethanol in it does the same thing. Only way around it is getting gas from a marina.

And those fuel numbers really aren't bad. You still on 3.27 gears?

3.73's. soon to be 4.30's.

[iRoush]

We don't have any e85 stations other than what's on base which are only for military vehicles. I have to drive 100 miles and fill up 55 gal drums that I store in the garage. I just fill up whenever I leave the house. It's not as convenient as filling up at the pump but the benefits of e85 are worth the hassle, imo. I also test it so I know exactly what I'm putting in the tank.

me too.

[Number Tew]

I don't have room for the drums otherwise I'd consider it. But I drive roughly 40 miles a day, I'd burn those drums out in a few weeks lol

[itsblown93]

Dont people also say that E85 is better in the summer then it is in the winter?

[SVTurbo 98]

Dont people also say that E85 is better in the summer then it is in the winter?

There's a summer and a winter blend. Summer blend is ~85% ethanol and winter is ~70% ethanol. If you're tuned on the summer blend you'll run a little rich with the winter blend. I'm currently tuned on 70% ethanol. Once I get some of the summer blend I'll get the tune looked at just to be on the safe side.

[justinschmidt1]

iroush handled this already but if you have e85 local its definitely awesome fuel to run.

You will need a good fuel system and will get less MPG but its like running race gas all the time and the motor will stay cleaner.

I wanted to run it but I cant find it anywhere close.

[revhead347]

what exactly needs lubrication in the fuel system? the only thing with moving parts on the fuel system is the pump and injectors, both of which can handle e85 no problem.

in fact, e85 needs to be driven more often to keep it from going bad. It doesn't not last nearly as long as gasoline. I'm just not sure where you're hearing e85 wears things out, I've seen numerous cars run for 10's of thousands of miles no problem. www.e85mustangs.com

Let me clarify. The valvetrain gets lubricated from the fuel, the ratio of ethanol in E85 dries out all the seals and lines in the fuel system. It may take years for this to happen, but it happens quicker than it does with gasoline. A good number of car people here in the southeast drive miles out of their way to buy gasoline that has no ethanol in it whatsoever.

Kurt

[Number Tew]

Not as many people do that as you would think. It's mostly people that have cars that sit for extended periods of time, as already stated, because the ethanol is corrosive to their fuel lines, etc.

If it sits that is. That's why marine gas doesn't have ethanol, because boats tend to sit for long periods of time without use.

[iRoush]

Let me clarify. The valvetrain gets lubricated from the fuel, the ratio of ethanol in E85 dries out all the seals and lines in the fuel system. It may take years for this to happen, but it happens quicker than it does with gasoline. A good number of car people here in the southeast drive miles out of their way to buy gasoline that has no ethanol in it whatsoever.

Kurt

I see, yes it can be a bit accelerated but realistically the only rubber that's in the system, at least on mine, is the filler neck. Everything else is braided lines or steel lines.

[iRoush]

There's a summer and a winter blend. Summer blend is ~85% ethanol and winter is ~70% ethanol. If you're tuned on the summer blend you'll run a little rich with the winter blend. I'm currently tuned on 70% ethanol. Once I get some of the summer blend I'll get the tune looked at just to be on the safe side.

also every station varies both summer and winter blends. so some stations might be 85% some might be 80% and so on.

[SVTurbo 98]

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E85 ETHANOL MYTHS

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[TD]1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.

11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.[/TD]

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