Det_Riot Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Decided after I get my car retuned that instead of dumping more money into my stock block and playing chicken with old internals, I'm just goin to start building another motor out of the car that I will swap into the current when I'm ready! So far here are my two ideas:Dart, Man o War, or R block331Big single, or smaller twinsPros:Smaller displacement, lower compression = better drivability and better gas mileage provided i keep my foot outta it?Cons: More components to break, costly turbo system ontop of costly motor69-74 351W, Sportsman 351 Block, R351 Block408 or 427N/A Higher compressionPros: Simpler set up, Cheaper? Intimidation factor of big cubesCons: Higher compression = less streetable?Thinking out loud here. Would love to hear people's inputs. Wish Steve-Oh was done swapping his motor in so he could tell me how it was on the street but that's never gonna happen =p it just looks shiny. I didn't include trans, or fuel system in the pros,cons, because they probably need to be built up pretty similar. The car will never be a track warrior, more of a street terror ;] Which is why i'm leaning towards the 302 base for the general thought of stay outta boost, drive where ever I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 My last engine project was a 351w I put in my coupe. Stock '72 block and internals, stock heads, edelbrock intake, Holley 4BBL carb, long tubes, electric water pump, no AC, no Alternator and an aluminum radiator. A little extreme for you, and I never got it on a dump, but I garuntee I would have made 300rwhp and 400ft tq. It would have been a TORQUE monster! That's the benefits of the 351w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Well maybe this would of helped, after the build I plan on being around 6-700 to the tires. I figure that will at least keep my car inline with production cars that are coming out =] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Well maybe this would of helped, after the build I plan on being around 6-700 to the tires. I figure that will at least keep my car inline with production cars that are coming out =]Hell a stroked 351 to 408 and a small blower(8-12psi) pretty sure you could easily be in that HP range. Especially with aluminum heads and a nice cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 can't i just as easily be in the range with a small block stroker and a big turbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 I would go with the smaller 4 bolt main block. There doesn't seem to be too much honest info on how much stronger a 351 block is than a 302 block, but it's not much more. I think you are going from the limit of a 302 block towards the limit of a stock 351 block. I've run the numbers before, and the price of adding a 4 bolt 302 block is cheaper than converting the car for a 351. There are a ton of nickel and dime parts you need to fit a 351 in there, and they add up to a good sum of money. The bore is the same on the both blocks, and that's where the real power comes from. In fact, if you get a 4 bolt 302 block, you can get more bore out of it than a stock 351 block, which means more power. 302 internal also have less rotating mass, and less reciprocating mass which means more efficiency in making power. I think you are going to end up with a more streetable, more affordable and more powerful 302 based engine than the 351 alternative. Saving money is very important. I don't suppose you have priced out transmission options for a power package of that magnitude.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Holcomb Motorsports has a parts list of everything you need to swap from a 302, to a 351w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 What are your plans for the car? Straight line drag racing, or road course Auto X type stuff.My standard answer is " There is no replacement for displacement."If you are building a streetable drag car, then go Bored and Stroked 351W With your choice of forced induction.If you want to do Auto X/roadcourse racing then go with the the 302 bored and stroked. For road racing any weight you can save over the front axle will be a benefit.Here would be my pick for a starting point.http://www.worldcastings.com/products/man-ofootwar-9500inch-deck-iron-block.htmlIt can be bored and stroked to 470 bad ass cubic inches. If you can not easily meet your goal with this then you need to go ahead and sell the stang and buy a FIAT 500. LOL.Refer to my previous statement and no replacement for displacementMatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Woody at Fordstrokers has been saying to stay away from the new World castings. I don't know the reason but it's worth looking into. He's recommending the Dart castings now.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I would go with the smaller 4 bolt main block. There doesn't seem to be too much honest info on how much stronger a 351 block is than a 302 block, but it's not much more. I think you are going from the limit of a 302 block towards the limit of a stock 351 block. I've run the numbers before, and the price of adding a 4 bolt 302 block is cheaper than converting the car for a 351. There are a ton of nickel and dime parts you need to fit a 351 in there, and they add up to a good sum of money. The bore is the same on the both blocks, and that's where the real power comes from. In fact, if you get a 4 bolt 302 block, you can get more bore out of it than a stock 351 block, which means more power. 302 internal also have less rotating mass, and less reciprocating mass which means more efficiency in making power. I think you are going to end up with a more streetable, more affordable and more powerful 302 based engine than the 351 alternative. Saving money is very important. I don't suppose you have priced out transmission options for a power package of that magnitude.KurtNegative, not yet. As of now I'll be going with a t56 or tko600. Maybe get a D&D kit since they're only about 15 minutes from my house.What are your plans for the car? Straight line drag racing, or road course Auto X type stuff.My standard answer is " There is no replacement for displacement."If you are building a streetable drag car, then go Bored and Stroked 351W With your choice of forced induction.If you want to do Auto X/roadcourse racing then go with the the 302 bored and stroked. For road racing any weight you can save over the front axle will be a benefit.Here would be my pick for a starting point.http://www.worldcastings.com/products/man-ofootwar-9500inch-deck-iron-block.htmlIt can be bored and stroked to 470 bad ass cubic inches. If you can not easily meet your goal with this then you need to go ahead and sell the stang and buy a FIAT 500. LOL.Refer to my previous statement and no replacement for displacementMattAs of now I think the car is going to be more street/show/twisties than it will be drag. I'm sure it'll end up at the strip at some time, but as far as suspension n such, it'll be geared towards roads than strips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Since you are not building a hard core track car then co with bored and stroked aftermarket 302 block. The aftermarket blocks are much stronger than any factory block ever was, so when you boost it you can go pretty high on the boostmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 hmmm so looks like my best about would be going with an R block or an A4 block, punching to a 331, then throwing boooost at it like it's my job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 It's like we are building the same car. Oh wait we are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/pts/3552441369.html I found this doing my nightly Craigslist search I don't know if it will help at all.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Lol if i had money itd be helpful! I probably wont start the build till next winter but I like thinking about tjibgs ahead of time. There's an a4 block on craigslist right now for thats already punched out to 4.060. Tooo bad im not in a buyers position :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto_x5.0 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 My supervisor had a 358ci stock truck block, f1r porcharger, and a tko600 and made over 600rwhp for 4 years before he sold the car. I've been told that if you fill the lower end on stock 351w blocks you can make 900hp at the crank with a good tune and keep it that way for a long time. That's just my .02I say bore out a 351w, retro-fit hyd roller kit for cheaper and more cam choices, good heads, good exhaust and supercharge it so you don't have to worry about turbo lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Waits for auto to PM me back about hooking us up with Procharger!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 im saddened i dont have a message in my inbox from you about this, this is how i find out your building the whip huh. I feel cheated and cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 im saddened i dont have a message in my inbox from you about this, this is how i find out your building the whip huh. I feel cheated and cheap!Knuckles! I havent seen you post in weeks bro! I messaged you the other day in chat and you never responded share your wealth of knowledge bro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Knuckles build my ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 haha i was just messing around man thats awesome youll be building it. its really smart to build an engine ont he side cuts down the down time by alot. @Brian suuure Ill build it just come drop it off..... ill get it back to you at some point >.> im gonna need you to sign over the title for insurance reasons though, not that I want a white Cobra or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 You silly gay boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 If you can come across a '69-'74 302 block that hasn't been bored, you can use it for money savings. They are strong and thick castings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 If you can come across a '69-'74 302 block that hasn't been bored, you can use it for money savings. They are strong and thick castings.What will they hold power too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 What will they hold power too?I've read and heard people making 600-650 without issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Keep in mind those 69-74 blocks are setup for flat tappet. It cost a good chunk of change to convert it to a roller cam. Any 351 block will be able to hold 650rwhp. I'd be more interested in looking for a 94' and up block that's already setup for a roller cam.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Keep in mind those 69-74 blocks are setup for flat tappet. It cost a good chunk of change to convert it to a roller cam. Any 351 block will be able to hold 650rwhp. I'd be more interested in looking for a 94' and up block that's already setup for a roller cam.KurtIt would cost let to convert the older 302 blocks to a roller, than buy a dart or man o war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 It would cost let to convert the older 302 blocks to a roller, than buy a dart or man o war.There are a lot more roller 302 blocks out there than roller 351 blocks. I can see no incentive to buying an old flat tappet 302 block and then converting it when there are so many roller blocks available. Not to mention having to go back to a 2 piece rear main seal. They actually never had a roller 351 from the factory. Just the 94' and up blocks were already setup for roller cams if you wanted to put one in. My biggest regret with the engine I have now is not going to a 4 bolt main block. I could have bought a used 4 bolt block for around $1000. I had spent $200 on a main girdle for a stock block, so the real difference would have only been around $800. In retrospect I would have just gone ahead and spent the extra $800 and then I would be able to spray the piss out of it. So if you buy an old 351 block you assume you are saving $1600 for a new 4 bolt Dart block. But say you paid $100 for that old Windsor block, and then spent $600 on a nice set of conversion roller lifters vs $134 for a set of factory roller lifters. You ended up only saving $1000 or so. I'm not saying that it's not a lot of money just not as much money as you would have assumed you would have saved.There is also a lot of folklore about which blocks are better and stronger. The 70-74' blocks probably were stronger when they were new. However most SBFs suffer from long term metal fatigue that manifests in a sudden failure. Forty years is an awful lot of potential metal fatigue. I think a lot of the suggestion that using a really old block is better came from a time when those really old blocks weren't really old. There's a good number of engine builders that have been building engines for 30+ years. Some of them haven't adjusted their recommendations to reflect how really old some of these castings have become.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95opal Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 When your building a pushrod for that kind of hp the price of converting a non roller351 to a roller or buying a dart block is really irrelevant. Its going to cost big money either way. From block to drivetrain, fuelsystem and engine management. Bulletproof parts aint cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am pretty sure the 94-96(97 25/350) truck blocks were roller from the factory.Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am pretty sure the 94-96(97 25/350) truck blocks were roller from the factory.MattThe '96 Bronco had a roller 351w. As for the 302 block, an older '69-74 were stronger, I wouldn't put or expect to put a newer roller 302 in the 600hp range, but an older thicker casting you could do, AND convert to a roller block for cheaper than an aftermarket current block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am pretty sure the 94-96(97 25/350) truck blocks were roller from the factory.MattYou know I retract my earlier statement. There might have been some roller 351s. I know the Lightning 351s weren't rollers.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 The '96 Bronco had a roller 351w. As for the 302 block, an older '69-74 were stronger, I wouldn't put or expect to put a newer roller 302 in the 600hp range, but an older thicker casting you could do, AND convert to a roller block for cheaper than an aftermarket current block.This came up on Hardcore5.0 a few years ago I think. Lots of professional engine builders over there. Anyone, they all came to the concensus that all the 5.0 blocks were pretty much the same strength wise. Of all the engines built, they couldn't recommend any particular stock block over another. There's been a long standing myth that early 302 blocks manufactured in Mexico were stronger due to a higher nickel content in the iron, and everyone agreed that it's just a myth. It's the same thing my engine builder told me. He said don't waste your time trying to chase a specific year block because all the 2 bolts are pretty much the same.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schiffy Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 This came up on Hardcore5.0 a few years ago I think. Lots of professional engine builders over there. Anyone, they all came to the concensus that all the 5.0 blocks were pretty much the same strength wise. Of all the engines built, they couldn't recommend any particular stock block over another. There's been a long standing myth that early 302 blocks manufactured in Mexico were stronger due to a higher nickel content in the iron, and everyone agreed that it's just a myth. It's the same thing my engine builder told me. He said don't waste your time trying to chase a specific year block because all the 2 bolts are pretty much the same.KurtYou have crushed my soul, and everything I ever believed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revhead347 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 When your building a pushrod for that kind of hp the price of converting a non roller351 to a roller or buying a dart block is really irrelevant. Its going to cost big money either way. From block to drivetrain, fuelsystem and engine management. Bulletproof parts aint cheap.I couldn't agree more. If you're going cheap on the block to try and make 600-700hp, you probably haven't come to a realistic budget for what it takes to make that kind of power.Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPVinyl Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Just like the old saying,Speed Costs, how fast do you want to gomatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det_Riot Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 When your building a pushrod for that kind of hp the price of converting a non roller351 to a roller or buying a dart block is really irrelevant. Its going to cost big money either way. From block to drivetrain, fuelsystem and engine management. Bulletproof parts aint cheap.I couldn't agree more. If you're going cheap on the block to try and make 600-700hp, you probably haven't come to a realistic budget for what it takes to make that kind of power.KurtJust like the old saying,Speed Costs, how fast do you want to gomattYuppp, ive accepted this already lol i know fast reliable and cheap dont go together. Thsts why I'm trying to research the best options even if they're the most expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeahloh95 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 planning is your best bet weigh all the options now and then make a decision based on your goals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto_x5.0 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I like this saying hereFast and cheap isn't reliableCheap and reliable isn't fastReliable and fast isn't cheapI've decided on the cheap and fast isn't reliable for my build, budget build really. A guy in the blower dome(where the superchargers are made at ATI) has a 95 Lightning with an f1 on it and he makes mid-500rwhp on stock internals and has had it that way for a long time. He also has a 385ci truck block with 625rwhp from an f1x and has made that power for going on 3 years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-Oh Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 It's only money Bryan! Sent from Space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
