Broght the Cobra back home today, few pics, video and got a free dyno pull

[Venom351R]

As far as the dyno pull things did not go as I suspected. Granted it is not tuned yet and running off the old tune w/ the AFR 185 heads and the TFSR Intake and shorty headers but regardless I saw 0 improvement in power. This should be 400+ and its not even close. I have sent all the cylinder head specs and cam specs to the dyno shop and he is going over with all if it w/ his engine builder to see what is up with this thing. Other then that it runs really well even for having no new tune, runs hard sounds awesome but need to find out where all the power is.

Short Exhaust video

http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/TravisMcEwen05/Mustang%20Pics/?action=view&current=DCFAB878-68CC-4D61-91F1-C87304DCAC76-448-00000029B51B193A.mp4

Few pics

Free dyno pull today with the Trick Flow High Ports, Victor EFI, and long tubes. Custom Cam was in for both the old combo and currently. We are kinda suspecting it is the cam but we are not sure, he wants to talk to his engine guy first. The old combo pulled 344/347

Edited August 23, 2012 by Venom351R

[TaborRacing9]

I'm sorry that you're not happy after waiting so long to get it back.... hopefully when u get it re tuned itll have a lot more pep

[Venom351R]

Its more then just needing a tune

[revhead347]

That's depressing. Sorry to hear things aren't going well. You don't happen to have the cam specs do you? Not that I would really be able to give you good information. Just curious.

Kurt

[330CubeGt]

That blows, Hope you get it straightened out and get back on the dyno to see what it can do.

[SVT Rob]

Hmmm ....

[Venom351R]

This was the dyno sheet from the AFR 185's shorty headers and TFSR intake.

[revhead347]

I think you might get a few more hp out of it if you ran it just a hair fatter, but like you said, there's something mismatching in the engine.

Kurt

[Venom351R]

he said he can squeeze out some more with the tune but he said there is not 80HP laying on the table. Something is just not right.

[SniveTroll]

i see maybe 10 more out of it. i am willing to bet its the cam too. may be a little too big for those heads. mid range 4.5 its leaning then gets back to the 12.5 at the end of the band where your peak is made.

[revhead347]

Those heads are enormous.

Kurt

[Venom351R]

they are hugenormous this should be pulling some serious NA numbers......yet its not. The cam was ground for AFR 185's that were out of the box w/ no work done to them. These heads are 234cc with extensive CNC port work.

Lift Intake Exhaust

.100" ..80 .58

.200" 142 115

.300" 196 150

.400" 258 190

.500" 304 215

.550" 320 220

.600" 333 222

.650" 340 230

.700" 334 236

.750" 340 238

[Musturd]

I'd get a new serious custom cam made personally. To ur engine specs it's the only way to get the power ur looking for

[SVT Rob]

You should be making peak power higher than 5500rpm, too. A/F looks good, it starts fat (this is relative), then leans out all the way to the peak in a pretty nice straight line. I'd definitely look at the cam, if EVERYTHING else in the engine is operating normally.

[Venom351R]

would the intake not being port matched to the heads cause a big enough restriction to cause this problem?

[Musturd]

Wouldn't make that big of a difference . My car makes power to around 7k

[Venom351R]

I'll get some ideas by this weekend for what the issue could be.

[SniveTroll]

im one of those guys that tries to get intake and heads matched. i still think its the cam.

[Venom351R]

so far Ive heard the intake not portmatched to the heads and the cam is to small. Hopefully thats what the tuners engine builder comes up with as well. If so I'll get anther cam and send the intake off over the winter to be port matched.

[revhead347]

Kind of surprised those heads don't flow much better than mine do, and my heads are way smaller. It looks like you have to get them up to .700" lift to get any air in them. I know when you first talked to Ed there was some discussion about valve clearance being an issue because of the stock pistons.

Kurt

[Venom351R]

Theres a ton of clearance with these, the intake valve barley made an impression in the clay and the exhaust valve never touched. Either way they flow better then any out of the box head and well enough to support 400-400+ HP to the wheels. I contacted Ed this morning concerning the cam being installed dot to dot. This is from the tech section on his site.

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Valvetrain Tech Notes #1 --- "Dot to Dot"

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“I installed it dot to dot.”

This is one of the most popular comments I hear after less than ideal results are seen when a camshaft installation is completed. Just the mentioning of this sends chills down my spine.

The proper installation of a camshaft and its peripheral valvetrain is one of the most important jobs an installer must do when maximizing the performance of any engine combination. Any short cuts or miscues in this regard, and the overall success of the project, and its ultimate performance, will definitely suffer.

How can something so simple be so problematic?

Let’s start with the basic premise that everyone can have a bad day at work. Who’s to say the crankshaft keyway was machined absolutely “dead on” when the machinist set it up? I mean, even a slight error of a degree or two is no big deal considering the thousands and thousands of engines out in the world. They run, don't they? Maybe it wasn’t even a bad day but something that is machined off the mean number but still within manufacturing tolerances. What's a degree or two among friends?

Now we have the next piece of the tolerance puzzle, the timing set. There are a series of variables that can occur with this component. The relationship of the keyway to the crankshaft sprocket teeth, the location of the cam dowel hole to the cam sprocket teeth and then there’s always the possibility of “both” items being off. Why worry? Well, if each facet is off in the same direction, it is a cumulative error that will change the engine's dynamics. That's why verifying the intake centerline as it relates to top dead center is very important.

When you're installing these two pieces to the engine, who’s to say they are so perfect, there’s no reason to check them?

Nothing is further from the truth. You'll never hear a professional engine builder say this. At least not one that knows the hows and whys of valvetrain importance. This is the type of attention to detail that separates the engine assemblers from the engine builders.

No camshaft should be just installed “dot to dot” if the installer is a professional!

Now the novice or the weekend mechanic might be able to justify doing a camshaft installation in this manner just because the tools required are not something a newbie has put the investment in. It's "almost" forgivable when this is spoken. However, when I hear his “dot to dot” comment from a shop that just charged a customer a lot of money to do the install, well, it definitely crosses the line and takes them off the referral list.

Take your time and verify everything. If you don't have the time, tools or talent to do it yourself, find a professional to do it for you. It's worth the effort!

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[SVT Rob]

I installed a cam "dot-to-dot" one time, and that was my first engine build. I don't have a degree wheel, but I make sure to get a timing set that has at least 3 keyway settings so you can install the cam at 3 different positions relative to the crank.

I use Desktop Dyno, plug in all the numbers, then play with the cam timing and see what's best. My XE274HR had a lot smoother torque curve at +4, so that's where it got installed at. I lost a bit of top end power because of it, but I gained a lot of mid-range torque. I've never seen an engine builder (one that's worth a shit) not degree the cam when building a performance engine.

For those that scoff at Desktop Dyno, the program does work, if you have the airflow files for the particular heads your running, the intakes, correct cam specs, and all the other fine detail numbers.

Edited August 24, 2012 by SVT Rob

[Det_Riot]

I redegreed my camshaft and it made the biggest difference in the world. no dyno numbers yet but seat of the pants feel is great

[Venom351R]

stopping by my friends shop today where the cam was installed and talking to him about it. Still waiting to hear from Ed if this could be the big issue or not.

[SVT Rob]

Good luck, man!!

[95opal]

Like I said in your other thread, have that tard degree the cam per the specs on Eds cam card. Honestly a professional engine builder slapping a custom cam in dot to dot makes you wonder what other bs shortcuts he took. Personally I wouldnt bring that guy my lawnmower motor. Just another reason why I choose to do everything myself..

[Venom351R]

was not the shop in NH that did the cam install but ed was really vauge on saying that was the problem, but in his tech info section on his page he says the words "cringe"when hearing lineing up a cam dot to dot.

[Paul]

All you guys talk about "degreeing" a camshaft like it's some magical cure that will fix everything. All it means is that you're checking valve lift to ensure it matches what the cam advertises, which in turn means the crankshaft keyway, timing chain, and camshaft dowel pin are all located correctly. (meaning they were machined correctly)

While it is possible that one of those machining processes went awry, and the performance of the motor is suffering because valve events are not occurring at the prescribed times, it is unlikely.

More likely, is that the cam is too small, or something else affecting the volumetric efficiency of the motor is reducing it from the "expected" output.

FWIW, my old 418 made similar power, and ~442 ft. lbs. of torque with a decidely mild Ed Curtis camshaft.

What are the specs of the cam? Why wasn't the cam changed when the heads were changed?

Paul.

[95opal]

All you guys talk about "degreeing" a camshaft like it's some magical cure that will fix everything. All it means is that you're checking valve lift to ensure it matches what the cam advertises, which in turn means the crankshaft keyway, timing chain, and camshaft dowel pin are all located correctly. (meaning they were machined correctly)

While it is possible that one of those machining processes went awry, and the performance of the motor is suffering because valve events are not occurring at the prescribed times, it is unlikely.

More likely, is that the cam is too small, or something else affecting the volumetric efficiency of the motor is reducing it from the "expected" output.

FWIW, my old 418 made similar power, and ~442 ft. lbs. of torque with a decidely mild Ed Curtis camshaft.

What are the specs of the cam? Why wasn't the cam changed when the heads were changed?

Paul.

Paul Its not a magical fix but it will leave hp on the table if not done and thats a fact. If it wasnt necessary then every cam would be installed dot to dot and there would be no need for multi indexed timing sets. Will he gain 80hp from degreeing the cam probably not but he will get the full benifits of what the cam was designed for yes. Is the cam to small for his current combo , Im sure but that is a mute point at this time. Are there other issues IDK but power dropping off that early is def not norm for what hes running and there is no way in hell ed specked a cam for his setup (old or new ) to be done at 5500. Now knowing the cam is in dot to dot is obviously the first thing that should be corrected period. I can almost bet the farm he should be advanced close to 4*

[Venom351R]

I wanted to upgrade the heads from the AFR's, I contacted Ed and asked him what he would suggest for heads that would work w/ my current cam and this is how the combo came about. The same cam was kept in and the new heads were put on.

[Venom351R]

The amount of money Ive spent on these heads, the long tubes, the custom H pipe, all the shop fees and w/ out even a tune yet and for the thing to spit out a number that was where it was 2 years ago w/ lesser parts is just a slap in the face. I'm just done w/ it for now, I took the insurance off it yesterday and I'm going to do some Auto X and mod the STI for awhile.

The dyno shop owner talked with his engine builder and he said it was a solid comb that its a 500HP combo all day long ( at the engine ) and maybe a cam tooth was off. Either way I think its camshaft related. I'll contact Ed again and see what he says as far as that cam grind w/ this combo and if it all looks good I'll take it back to the shop in the spring and have them make sure everything is as it should be with the the cam and I will have them degree it according to the cam card.

[revhead347]

I can't emphasize how much I disagree with checking the cam events. I even asked my engine builder who is an OCD engine perfectionist and he told me not to bother. There is no HP to be gained by degreeing in the cam. The only thing that changes if the cam is off is where that peak power is in the rpm band. This particular engine isn't making enough peak power, so moving it isn't the issue. My engine builder made it clear that any perfectionable adjustment can't be achieved with a chain anyway. Modern engine components just don't have that much error in them anymore. Everything is made by a machine, and grevious errors in cam and crank index don't happen with good quality products. If you are using a good quality roller chain, it's not going to have any measurable slack in it. And if there was any, there would be half a degree at best, and you couldn't adjust that anyway.

Kurt

Edited August 28, 2012 by revhead347
Misquoted

[revhead347]

Oh and by the way, I'm just going to say that it's a cam problem. Are you sure you have the right cam card? That cam is totally out of whack. I have never seen one ground with that much lift in conjunction with so much lobe seperation and so little duration. That has to be some sort of forced induction grind for a monster amount of boost.

Kurt

[Venom351R]

Ive sent that same card spec info many times back to him when asking about my combo and he know what my combo is so if there was an error it should have been apparent by now. Im going to verify TDC and do a compression check.

[revhead347]

Sounds like a good idea. That cam is so far from a typical ratio grind though. Maybe it's good, but it's definately weird.

Kurt

[Venom351R]

need to start to eliminate other factors before I start replacing parts. Who knows maybe my compression is shot

[95opal]

. The only thing that changes if the cam is off is where that peak power is in the rpm band. This particular engine isn't making enough peak power, so moving it isn't the issue. .

Kurt

Kurt we all understand what your builder told you and I agree to an extent, but with a combo that is meant to make peek power well past 6k and cant even pull past 55k how do you expect it to see the numbers it should? Its done right when those heads and that cam should be making the power and they cant because why? Trust me the numbers on that cam combined with the rest of his combo should put him well into the 400+ mark. You want to throw your OTS cam in dot to dot be my guest but when you spend big money on custom cams and high dollar parts you better take the time and install it correctly or you wind up with a bucket full of shit. Which is exactly what trav is sitting on and for all the bs he went threw I for one would be driving that thing back to the engine guy and demand he degree that cam correctly. If not at least grab a wheel and do it yourself it aint rocket science.

[revhead347]

Kurt we all understand what your builder told you and I agree to an extent, but with a combo that is meant to make peek power well past 6k and cant even pull past 55k how do you expect it to see the numbers it should? Its done right when those heads and that cam should be making the power and they cant because why? Trust me the numbers on that cam combined with the rest of his combo should put him well into the 400+ mark. You want to throw your OTS cam in dot to dot be my guest but when you spend big money on custom cams and high dollar parts you better take the time and install it correctly or you wind up with a bucket full of shit. Which is exactly what trav is sitting on and for all the bs he went threw I for one would be driving that thing back to the engine guy and demand he degree that cam correctly. If not at least grab a wheel and do it yourself it aint rocket science.

That's not the point. I have a custom camshaft myself, and my parts are definately in the price range and quality as the op. The point is that at 348rwhp, degreeing the cam isn't going to fix the problem. If you are at least 50hp off, you don't start messing with the timing and fuel pressure either.

I agree, a compression test is definately in order.

Kurt

[Venom351R]

Ed was suppose to send me a piston stop so I can check TDC but I think he forgot b/c it has not showed up, either that or he could not find who he lent it out to before but either way I'll buy one at some point they are not expensive. That plus the compression check are simple things that can be done and looking down into the ports to see if the lower and heads match up but I'm in no hurry to do any of them. I'm just so disgusted with this whole situation. It spent almost 2 years down and not running or barley running and I dumped all kind of money into it mod wise and shop fee wise and only thing I got out of it was a huge kick to the balls, so at this point I'm in serious I don't give a fuck mode. I may get to some of these things before winter but if not it can all wait until spring. Every time I pull into the garage it still piss's me off just to see it so at this point I'm not ready to do anything on it.