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Lazer_Red

Engine build/swap opinion

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Ok so i have been going over this in my head and I just cant decide.  I have reasearched all the different builds:  

 

Stock block gt40 blower or turbo

Dart 8.2 builds 

351, 408 n/a and FI 

Coyote swap

 

My car and wants:

1995 gt stock everything other then flowmasters. Aode

 

I want a street car that i can have fun in the twistys and auto cross.  I will go to the strip every once in a while but not a strip car.  I am going to swap a irs  in the rear. Going to swap a 5 speed in the car.  All in all i want a fun street car.  I think 400 to 450 rwhp will be all i need for the street.  I cant say i wont want more later but this car will be my daily grind and i want it reliable.  Budget wise i dont have anything set because i am not in a hurry.  I will take the time to save what is needed and buy alittle at a time.  So I need the opinions of they guys and girls that have had these different builds and would you recommend what you have or if you could so it over again what would you do?  

 

Thanks

Kris

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a coyote motor is 400+ hp stock, which is nice, and should be fairly reliable as such.  

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As tired as I am of people saying to coyote swap everything, of the options you listed with reliability in mind, the coyote will be the most reliable setup that makes good power.

 

If you stay pushrod, and truly just want modest power a 302+ mild boost will be just fine. If you have any small chance that you'll want more than modest power, don't even bother with a stock block 302; you'll need a windsor or Dart/R block without question. You will outgrow a stock block 302's limits very quickly with boost, I know because I did.

 

 

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Agreed with Rio.

 

If you truly want "only" 450whp in a very street able car.  Its a blower and supporting mods away. It's the cheapest route as well (unless giggle gas).

 

Put a blower on it and have some fun.  When you start going for big power with a motor swap, transmission, fuel system, etc... the car will be come a jack stand warrior and will burn a hole in your pocket.

 

Been there, still there...

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Thanks guys for the replys!  This is why i cant make up my mind lol.  The coyote swap is the most reliable because truly is will be all stock save for exhaust, intake.  All of the builds in different ways have there pros and cons.  This is why i really want to learn from everyones ups and downs.  So i can make the best decision for my self.  If everyone is up to it post your different builds in a push rod car.  Including coyote swaps ( no other mod motors though).  Add your opinon on the pros and cons and what you would do different if you were to start over.  

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

Kris

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I have really looked at stock block builds although most of the internet community always says it is not worth it.  My boss has a 95 stock block, e cam, aluminum heads, svo intake twin ihi turbos 16psi.  It is home tuned through a pms and never seen a dyno.  It is an adoe car and he beats the hell out of it.  Its pretty damn fast.  It is on the original block.  He also has a beautiful 86 with a stock block 331 and a t trim.  That car is a monster but is a garage queen. That car also has the original block.  So it is promising but i know that every block is different.  I dont know that i want to put anything other then gt40 heads on the block and boost it.  I dont want to loose good heads if it splits.  If i do a n/a 302 or 306 car i would but is 350 rwhp going to be keep me happy?   Lol i really have put alot of thought on this but its time to real me back in here and i feel its time to come to a conclusion with your help.

 

Kris

 

 

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if i had the money, i would do a coyote swap and try to make everything as user friendly as possible.  basically using all plug and play components and making it reliable.  intake, exhaust, tune, stuff like that isn't going to be killer on it.    

 

but also, if i had the money, i'd build a nice pushrod motor with some sort of F/I that makes gobs of power and buy a second car that has some grunt and use it as a DD so when the mustang breaks....

 

If you have money to spend on doing a coyote swap, you can get a decent second car to romp around in.  Maybe you dont have the option of a second car, but thats what i would do.

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1 hour ago, Blackmage said:

but also, if i had the money, i'd build a nice pushrod motor with some sort of F/I that makes gobs of power and buy a second car that has some grunt and use it as a DD so when the mustang breaks....

 

Heh.  This right here. 

 

Only issue is you end up messing with the DD to make more power and then have to buy another DD which then breaks so... it's a viscous cycle and a true story.

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20 minutes ago, 410sn95 said:

 

Heh.  This right here. 

 

Only issue is you end up messing with the DD to make more power and then have to buy another DD which then breaks so... it's a viscous cycle and a true story.

haha too true

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7 hours ago, Blackmage said:

if i had the money, i would do a coyote swap and try to make everything as user friendly as possible.  basically using all plug and play components and making it reliable.  intake, exhaust, tune, stuff like that isn't going to be killer on it.    

 

but also, if i had the money, i'd build a nice pushrod motor with some sort of F/I that makes gobs of power and buy a second car that has some grunt and use it as a DD so when the mustang breaks....

 

If you have money to spend on doing a coyote swap, you can get a decent second car to romp around in.  Maybe you dont have the option of a second car, but thats what i would do.

 

6 hours ago, 410sn95 said:

 

Heh.  This right here. 

 

Only issue is you end up messing with the DD to make more power and then have to buy another DD which then breaks so... it's a viscous cycle and a true story.

The coyote swap has really been on my mind.  Can't do another car at this time.  

 

I think the best thing to do is complete the 5 speed swap because my aode is acting up.  Build the chassis and get the car where i want it.  Then build or swap the engine around what i have built car to do.

 

Kris

 

 

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If I were doing my car again, choosing from that list, it would go like this.

 

1. Coyote swap - crate motor with a warranty, drop it in and ready to run, good power out of the gate, can handle boost, and very efficient.  I didn't want to drop the coin at the time.

2. Dart 8.2 build (kicking myself for not going this route to begin with) - having a heck of a lot stronger block while still being able to reuse my intake and exhaust.  I also wanted to go boost but now I'm pushing my block a little too far so I'll wait until this one goes.  I'm thinking a 363 will be fun :D.

3. 351w build - Strong block.  I just didn't want to make all of the changes necessary because I was trying to stay on a "budget".  Looking back, I definitely could've went a different route.

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On 11/16/2016 at 2:28 PM, Lazer_Red said:

 

The coyote swap has really been on my mind.  Can't do another car at this time.  

 

I think the best thing to do is complete the 5 speed swap because my aode is acting up.  Build the chassis and get the car where i want it.  Then build or swap the engine around what i have built car to do.

 

Kris

 

 

 

Think of the other car/dd driver as part of your build.  In the whole scheme of things a $1000 dd isn't that much when you start adding up the cost to do any swap, chasssis mods to handle more power, engine managment, etc... Then your not rushed to finish up and get the car on the road for Monday morning.

 

I rocked around in a 80's Datsun pickup (free, had to fix it) and a $600 80's Jetta that had no interior (was in a fire).

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12 hours ago, 410sn95 said:

 

Think of the other car/dd driver as part of your build.  In the whole scheme of things a $1000 dd isn't that much when you start adding up the cost to do any swap, chasssis mods to handle more power, engine managment, etc... Then your not rushed to finish up and get the car on the road for Monday morning.

 

I rocked around in a 80's Datsun pickup (free, had to fix it) and a $600 80's Jetta that had no interior (was in a fire).

All though i agree with you i dont have to count on my car being on the road.  My job is right down the street from my house and I can walk.  But i also have my wife's car and i could have her drop me off.  So i dont want the car down for a long amount of time but if it had to be its ok.  Plus i dont have the space to park another car at this time.

 

Kris

Edited by Lazer_Red

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Regarding your question of if you'll really stay happy with 350rwhp, honestly... you won't unless you are one in a billion mustang owners who can avoid being bitten by the power bug. You might be happy with it at first, but then you'll run into a friend with more power, or ride in a car with a shit ton of boost, or go to the track, or watch a youtube video, or a million other things and before you know it you'll be itching for more. When I put the 347 in my car, I was going to be happy making 342rwhp/408rwtq... that lasted less than a year. Before I knew it, I was putting on a Procharger and in a snap, I'm at the limits of safe power with my block. It really irritates me knowing that if I had a better block and a fuel system I could make 650+, but instead I'm stuck at the 500 mark until I feel like dropping a ton of cash and building a dart block, which will undoubtedly bring with it a whole mess of other shit I'll decide to unnecessarily do.

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21 hours ago, 95riosnake said:

Regarding your question of if you'll really stay happy with 350rwhp, honestly... you won't unless you are one in a billion mustang owners who can avoid being bitten by the power bug. You might be happy with it at first, but then you'll run into a friend with more power, or ride in a car with a shit ton of boost, or go to the track, or watch a youtube video, or a million other things and before you know it you'll be itching for more. When I put the 347 in my car, I was going to be happy making 342rwhp/408rwtq... that lasted less than a year. Before I knew it, I was putting on a Procharger and in a snap, I'm at the limits of safe power with my block. It really irritates me knowing that if I had a better block and a fuel system I could make 650+, but instead I'm stuck at the 500 mark until I feel like dropping a ton of cash and building a dart block, which will undoubtedly bring with it a whole mess of other shit I'll decide to unnecessarily do.

I completely agree with you about this.  This is honestly why i have had a hard time figuring out what i want to do with my build.  When you add up all of the expenses of an aftermarket block build then the 351 and coyote swap dont look so bad.  The 351 is probably the cheapest option but i am not sure if it is the best option.  The only draw back to the 351 is the height and weight but when you add aluminum heads the dart block and 351 will be pretty close weight wise.  So height is the issue for me because i would really like to use a 96-98 cobra hood on my car. This is why i ask what builds or swaps has everyone done and what did you like and or dislike.  If you did it over again which route would you have taken?

I really have not narrowed it down.  

 

Kris

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22 hours ago, 95riosnake said:

Regarding your question of if you'll really stay happy with 350rwhp, honestly... you won't unless you are one in a billion mustang owners who can avoid being bitten by the power bug. You might be happy with it at first, but then you'll run into a friend with more power, or ride in a car with a shit ton of boost, or go to the track, or watch a youtube video, or a million other things and before you know it you'll be itching for more. When I put the 347 in my car, I was going to be happy making 342rwhp/408rwtq... that lasted less than a year. Before I knew it, I was putting on a Procharger and in a snap, I'm at the limits of safe power with my block. It really irritates me knowing that if I had a better block and a fuel system I could make 650+, but instead I'm stuck at the 500 mark until I feel like dropping a ton of cash and building a dart block, which will undoubtedly bring with it a whole mess of other shit I'll decide to unnecessarily do.

 

All of this.  I'm in the exact same boat now.  

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5 hours ago, Josh@RideTech said:

 

All of this.  I'm in the exact same boat now.  

Lol yeah i struggle with this.  I really thought about going with a 96-04 before i bought this car because of this.  But there is something about a push rod and the condition of my car that made me buy this one.  Then after words and looking to start my plan i am again stuck at the engine.  There are a lot of choices and one i didnt include is a mach one complete swap from mps and at 5800 its not a bad idea.  It comes with everything to complete the swap. Not sure which way i want to go.  The stock block build isn't going to happen.  So i am left with 351/ stroker or mod swap.  I am leaning towards the 351 swap with am IHC.  That should keep me happy for now and then a blower later when i want more.  This would keep the car a push rod and i wont have a 5k bill right up front. 

 

Kris

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45 minutes ago, Lazer_Red said:

Lol yeah i struggle with this.  I really thought about going with a 96-04 before i bought this car because of this.  But there is something about a push rod and the condition of my car that made me buy this one.  Then after words and looking to start my plan i am again stuck at the engine.  There are a lot of choices and one i didnt include is a mach one complete swap from mps and at 5800 its not a bad idea.  It comes with everything to complete the swap. Not sure which way i want to go.  The stock block build isn't going to happen.  So i am left with 351/ stroker or mod swap.  I am leaning towards the 351 swap with am IHC.  That should keep me happy for now and then a blower later when i want more.  This would keep the car a push rod and i wont have a 5k bill right up front. 

 

Kris

 

If you stay pushrod, at least go to a 351 base without a doubt!  I don't want you kicking yourself like I am lol.  

 

 

Or on another note... I'll sell you a really nice 331 :D 

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7 hours ago, Lazer_Red said:

... The 351 is probably the cheapest option but i am not sure if it is the best option.  The only draw back to the 351 is the height and weight but when you add aluminum heads the dart block and 351 will be pretty close weight wise.  So height is the issue for me because i would really like to use a 96-98 cobra hood on my car. This is why i ask what builds or swaps has everyone done and what did you like and or dislike.  If you did it over again which route would you have taken?

I really have not narrowed it down.  

 

Kris

 

A 9.5 tall deck can fit under a stock sn95 GT hood.  It will most definitely fit under the slightly taller 96+ Cobra hood. 

 

I fit the 9.5 under a stock profile hood with stock height motor mounts.  It comes down to pushing the engine as far back in the bay as possible and intake manifold selection.

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1 hour ago, Josh@RideTech said:

 

If you stay pushrod, at least go to a 351 base without a doubt!  I don't want you kicking yourself like I am lol.  

 

 

Or on another note... I'll sell you a really nice 331 :D 

Lol i am thinking 351 is the way to go.  

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39 minutes ago, 410sn95 said:

 

A 9.5 tall deck can fit under a stock sn95 GT hood.  It will most definitely fit under the slightly taller 96+ Cobra hood. 

 

I fit the 9.5 under a stock profile hood with stock height motor mounts.  It comes down to pushing the engine as far back in the bay as possible and intake manifold selection.

Good to know i assume you have an aftermarket  k member?  What intake are you using?  If I go the 351w route i am looking at running the new trick flow 190 11r heads since this wont be a stroker.

Edited by Lazer_Red

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I am thinking 351w stock block because it will handles enough power to make me happy. I really dont see the need to have 600 plus rwhp in a street car.  If i ever do then the block will hold it.  But i know that i wont.  After all this will be a street car that may see some auto cross here and there.  I want it to be fun and not need work everytime i turn around.  I have worked on plenty of high hp cars and some of them spent more time on stands then running.  I want a simple build that will be streetable.

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39 minutes ago, Lazer_Red said:

Good to know i assume you have an aftermarket  k member?  What intake are you using?  If I go the 351w route i am looking at running the new trick flow 190 11r heads since this wont be a stroker.

 

The swap was fit under a stock hood line with the stock k-member. I used solid motor mounts re-drilled to move the motor back. The intake manifold is a victor jr. converted to EFI and a 6061.com low profile sheet metal elbow. The clearance between the hood and elbow is very close and some trimming of hood bracing was needed.  Any motor movement will result in contact.  Solid mounts are pretty much required.

Edited by 410sn95

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6 minutes ago, 410sn95 said:

 

The swap was was fit under a stock hood line with the stock k-member. I used solid motor mounts re-drilled to move the motor back. The intake manifold is a victor jr. converted to EFI and a 6061.com low profile sheet metal elbow. The clearance between the hood and elbow is very close and some trimming of hood bracing was needed.  Any motor movement will result in contact.  Solid mounts are pretty much required.

Sweet how is the NVH with the solid mounts and was there any issues with trans tunnel or fire wall clearence?  Did the intake choice and elbow kill any low end power since the plenum size and runner lenght are shorter/ smaller?

 

Kris

Edited by Lazer_Red

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25 minutes ago, Lazer_Red said:

Sweet how is the NVH with the solid mounts and was there any issues with trans tunnel or fire wall clearence?  Did the intake choice and elbow kill any low end power since the plenum size and runner lenght are shorter/ smaller?

 

Kris

 

 It is not a dd nore would I want to dd the car. It was setup as high power handling car with NVH being at the bottom of my list. That being said, NVH is actually very good for what the car is. I think the dumps create more NVH than the engine does.  No issues with trans tunnel or firewall on initial fit.  The tunnel had to be "modified" a little when I went T-56 Magnum.

 

I am sure intake choice killed some potential low end tq but the motor is a 410 stroker with a Vortech YSi blower.  Any tq lost from short runner's is more than made up for with cubes. It's no slouch on the bottom and pulls very hard up top when it gets up on the blower.  Driving on the street I actually find that there is never an instance I need to make boost to motivate the car.

Edited by 410sn95

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On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 4:27 PM, 410sn95 said:

 

 It is not a dd nore would I want to dd the car. It was setup as high power handling car with NVH being at the bottom of my list. That being said, NVH is actually very good for what the car is. I think the dumps create more NVH than the engine does.  No issues with trans tunnel or firewall on initial fit.  The tunnel had to be "modified" a little when I went T-56 Magnum.

 

I am sure intake choice killed some potential low end tq but the motor is a 410 stroker with a Vortech YSi blower.  Any tq lost from short runner's is more than made up for with cubes. It's no slouch on the bottom and pulls very hard up top when it gets up on the blower.  Driving on the street I actually find that there is never an instance I need to make boost to motivate the car.

Yeah NVH is not huge on my list but it is important for me, but i am glad that its not to bad.  Lol i dont dump my exhaust anymore for that reason.

 

There is no replacement for displacement lol.  I bet that 410 is mean and boost makes it even more fun.  I will boost mine at some point.  Right now though if i do the 351 i think heads, cam and intake will be good for a while.  

 

You guys think the 190 11r heads will be plenty for the 351?  I was thinking the 56 cc head to raise the comp alittle. Maybe a trick flow r intake or spider intake with elbow and an ed curtis cam. Long tubes or shorties?

Edited by Lazer_Red

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Right now my aode is acting up so i will be buying my old car back from a friend and swapping the t5 out of it into my car.  The rest of the car will be a parts car and will sell everything before it is scrapped.  After this is done then i will start working on the engine swap.

 

Kris

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i'm late to the party but i'm also in the camp of built up a 302 and now wish i hadn't.  at this point i'm not throwing anymore money at my engine even though there is still some room to grow yet and clean up.  i'll be swapping coyote if this thing ever gives me problems again or when i just feel like dropping the cash.  it's the easiest way to make a lot of power reliably at this point.

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15 minutes ago, Prokiller said:

i'm late to the party but i'm also in the camp of built up a 302 and now wish i hadn't.  at this point i'm not throwing anymore money at my engine even though there is still some room to grow yet and clean up.  i'll be swapping coyote if this thing ever gives me problems again or when i just feel like dropping the cash.  it's the easiest way to make a lot of power reliably at this point.

 

Kinda the way I feel about the 289 in my 66.  It's a fresh rebuild, and back when it was rebuilt, 300hp was a big deal.  Quite honestly, I would much rather just put a coyote in it and call it good... smelling like gas after a 5 minute drive doesn't hold the same appeal it once did.

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48 minutes ago, Psychorugby said:

 

Kinda the way I feel about the 289 in my 66.  It's a fresh rebuild, and back when it was rebuilt, 300hp was a big deal.  Quite honestly, I would much rather just put a coyote in it and call it good... smelling like gas after a 5 minute drive doesn't hold the same appeal it once did.

granted when we built ours, coyotes weren't even in the thoughts of ford.  i just wish i would have went dart windsor from the word go.

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51 minutes ago, Prokiller said:

granted when we built ours, coyotes weren't even in the thoughts of ford.  i just wish i would have went dart windsor from the word go.

 

More or less why I chose the 351w route... but damn if it doesn't entail a bunch of extra thought.

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The only "con" to a crate coyote swap (complete engine with harness and computer) is the price.  If the price isn't an issue, there's no drawbacks.

 

Everybody already beat up the 302-based builds so I don't need to say more.

 

a 351 stroked to 393 or more can compete with the coyote on the dyno.  It will be heavier and it will be more temperamental, both of which are cons for handling and street manners, but it can be done for less money which is the compromise.

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11 minutes ago, seijirou said:

351 stroked to 393 or more can compete with the coyote on the dyno.  It will be heavier and it will be more temperamental, both of which are cons for handling and street manners, but it can be done for less money which is the compromise.

 

This is the main reason I sold my 410w.

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Maybe it's my age showing but...

 

Every internet thread, every mag article, and fb post seems to be "OMG!!!!!!!!1111!!1! Coyote swap it!!!1!1".  I get it, it's a great motor. Just seems like its the flavor of year for the Ford guys. 

 

If I went by the interwebs alone: The pushrod build is exotic with black magic needing to be applied to make work. 

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35 minutes ago, 410sn95 said:

Maybe it's my age showing but...

 

Every internet thread, every mag article, and fb post seems to be "OMG!!!!!!!!1111!!1! Coyote swap it!!!1!1".  I get it, it's a great motor. Just seems like its the flavor of year for the Ford guys. 

 

If I went by the interwebs alone: The pushrod build is exotic with black magic needing to be applied to make work. 

 

Yeah, not many people know how to measure for pushrods or set valve lash.  

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It's the progress of technology.  Any two things a coyote can do you can also do with a pushrod, but after that the coyote's gonna beat ya.  Either in power, economy, drivability / street manners, reliability, cubic inches, etc.

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48 minutes ago, seijirou said:

It's the progress of technology.  Any two things a coyote can do you can also do with a pushrod, but after that the coyote's gonna beat ya.  Either in power, economy, drivability / street manners, reliability, cubic inches, etc.

 

Exactly... In my particular case I'm looking for reliable, repeatable power with a high RPM powerband. I've been very impressed with the way the tune only 5.0 moves my '15 Super Crew around and I can only imagine what that would equate to in a gutted SN95 and sticky rubber.

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7 hours ago, seijirou said:

It's the progress of technology.  Any two things a coyote can do you can also do with a pushrod, but after that the coyote's gonna beat ya.  Either in power, economy, drivability / street manners, reliability, cubic inches, etc.

 

I agree its a great all around motor.

 

I disagree that it will beat the pushrod all the time. Where does the coyote beat a stroked tall deck windsor in cubes? Lets not forget the LS: the engine touched by the hand of god.  It's a pushrod and competes very well with the coyote in new cars.

 

I also think it takes all the fun out of things to just "drop a coyote in it". Gone are the days of researching cam shaft, heads, intake, management, etc...  Peeps be all... "Lets just drop a coyote in it".

 

Am I biased? Probably.  Have been rocking a blown stroker tall deck for a long time. Makes good power, excellent driveability, 16mpg on the freeway and still has yet to be beaten by a local coyote.  Then again it hasn't been out for a yr or so. Maybe I should get it out of the shop, getting motivated.

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2 hours ago, 410sn95 said:

 

I agree its a great all around motor.

 

I disagree that it will beat the pushrod all the time. Where does the coyote beat a stroked tall deck windsor in cubes? 

 

By needing less of them :)

 

A pushrod can be built to have the power and the manners but it takes more cubes to get there.  With cubes comes static weight, reciprocating mass, rpm limitations...  Not even considering how the pushrod design itself brings mass problems with it.

 

It's a competition the pushrod can't win but that's okay, it's progress, it's not supposed to win.

 

And you're right, they don't have the character.  The steam engine has even more character than the i.c.e. and even more ways to tinker for performance but only eclectic people build them because they're so far behind in the progress of technology.

 

Truth is you picking the pushrod is the same as the guy picking the coyote, you just have a different preference balance of performance vs charm.

 

Neither is a wrong choice, you do you. ?

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Yeah I have been doing a lot of research and I still can't decide.  The f150 engine can be had for less then 2k here in Texas so that not to bad.  But I would have to buy a modular car and get all the pieces needed to swap my push rod car. Or buy them individually, so the expense keeps building.  But building a push rod can be the same money wise lol.  Either way will nickel and dime you. So I decided to just focus on the suspension and chassis then worry about the engine.  We will see when the time comes were I am at money wise and go from there.  

 

Kris

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